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Orca change : +1 High Slot
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Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-08-31 18:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Loyal Follower
Hello,

i am proposing for the Orca to acquire one additional High Slot, making them from 3 now that it has to 4.

The reason for this change is that this is the only way to fully utilize the role of the ship. It currently has 2 role bonuses on tractor beam which take a high slot and also can use simultaneously 3 warfare links, so in total 4 High Slots at a minimum. So, when you spend 2 months if you want to fully train for the Ship (industrial Command) beyond other skills for it you could fully utilize its role in the end.

At the same time remove from Command Processor I the ability that it can be fit on Industry Command Ship to avoid Orca having more than 3 warfare links operated.

No other change in its medium and low slots.

TIA
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-08-31 19:15:29 UTC
I think that's kind of the point?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-08-31 19:39:27 UTC
+1
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#4 - 2013-08-31 19:41:53 UTC
Voting +1 Please.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-08-31 19:47:58 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I think that's kind of the point?

^^ This.

Besides... you don't need one of the mining links anyways (the capacitor one).

How did you Veterans start?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-08-31 19:53:10 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I think that's kind of the point?

^^ This.

Besides... you don't need one of the mining links anyways (the capacitor one).

the capacitor one helps out quite a bit in dangerous space. since it doesnt have extra slots for seige links either
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#7 - 2013-08-31 19:55:40 UTC
OP, I would direct you to the somewhat dated, yet still incredibly relevant film strip entitled, "Tradeoffs? In MY EVE? It's More Common Than You Think."
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-08-31 19:56:35 UTC
First, if you are in space where the tractor bonus is useful you don't need the capacitor link.
If you are in space where the capacitor link is useful then your ships should be within corporate hanger access range and the tractor beam is not used.
If you are in hostile space the best use of the third high slot would be a shield harmonizing link. or just don't mine in hostile space.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-08-31 20:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Loyal Follower
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-08-31 20:02:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
First, if you are in space where the tractor bonus is useful you don't need the capacitor link.
If you are in space where the capacitor link is useful then your ships should be within corporate hanger access range and the tractor beam is not used.
If you are in hostile space the best use of the third high slot would be a shield harmonizing link. or just don't mine in hostile space.

why would they want to stay closer to the orca? and what deems space as unusable for a tractor beam? most asteroid belts get large enough for a beam to be useful. and there already are tradeoff to using the orca, most notably being fat, slow, and relatively easy to kill. It's not like giving the orca the ability to do it's job is going to be too much.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#11 - 2013-08-31 20:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Loyal Follower wrote:
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.


You can use those bonuses. You just can't maximize them all at once.

This is, by the way, in keeping with every single subcap link ship in the game. Command ships as slated will be able to run three links; they have two utility highs. They have to drop a weapon to run all three. T3 cruisers have to sacrfice damned near the whole fit to run a rack of links. The same with T1 battlecruisers. More than one, and you're giving up a midslot, and in most cases an extra high.
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-08-31 20:22:35 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.


You can use those bonuses. You just can't maximize them all at once.

This is, by the way, in keeping with every single subcap link ship in the game. Command ships as slated will be able to run three links; they have two utility highs. They have to drop a weapon to run all three. T3 cruisers have to sacrfice damned near the whole fit to run a rack of links. The same with T1 battlecruisers. More than one, and you're giving up a midslot, and in most cases an extra high.



I understand your point and what other people that didn't like the proposition but i feel that the situation with Orca is different. If we put aside T1 battlecruisers and T3 cruisers and look at the Command ship that has more a specific role, in these you are able to simultaneously utilize them with less firepower. But in the case of Orca there is simply nothing.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#13 - 2013-08-31 20:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Loyal Follower wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.


You can use those bonuses. You just can't maximize them all at once.

This is, by the way, in keeping with every single subcap link ship in the game. Command ships as slated will be able to run three links; they have two utility highs. They have to drop a weapon to run all three. T3 cruisers have to sacrfice damned near the whole fit to run a rack of links. The same with T1 battlecruisers. More than one, and you're giving up a midslot, and in most cases an extra high.



I understand your point and what other people that didn't like the proposition but i feel that the situation with Orca is different. If we put aside T1 battlecruisers and T3 cruisers and look at the Command ship that has more a specific role, in these you are able to simultaneously utilize them with less firepower. But in the case of Orca there is simply nothing.


It has nothing to do with whether or not I like the proposition. It is the way it is, and it is that way for a reason. CCP does not want you maximizing both the bonused uses of linking ships. You can simultaneously use tractors and links on an Orca. You simply may not fit a full rack of one while also running a full rack of the other.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-08-31 20:31:44 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.


You can use those bonuses. You just can't maximize them all at once.

This is, by the way, in keeping with every single subcap link ship in the game. Command ships as slated will be able to run three links; they have two utility highs. They have to drop a weapon to run all three. T3 cruisers have to sacrfice damned near the whole fit to run a rack of links. The same with T1 battlecruisers. More than one, and you're giving up a midslot, and in most cases an extra high.

command ships only have to sacrfice a single turret, not all of them. orca doesn't have any of these extra slots.

maurauders can utilize all of their bonuses without any tradeoffs, they even have a bonus to assist them in doing this.

battlecruisers sacrifice, in most cases a single utility slot.

even the rorqual can fit all of its mods (3 links, tractor beam, Capital shield transporter, and indy core) without any trade-offs (unless you consider the clone bay a tradeoff, but it's not used in the same field support as the other modules).

considering that a T3 and battle cruiser are only bonused for 1 link it would make sense for them to make even heavier sacrfices tp run more than that. running multiple links is not their dedicated role.

the orca does not have these extra slots and modules to play with. and it is supposed to provide a hauler and booster for the fleet it is boosting since mining fleets don't have the same versatilities as combat gangs when it comes to choosing what ships to bring. The orca is the only ship that has to make such large sacrifices to fill it's intended roles. which, for the most part boils down to boosting and hauling.
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-08-31 20:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Loyal Follower
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Since the ship has the specific role and bonuses given i would like to be able to use/utilize them. I believe most will agree that since something is given then at least we would like to be able to use it.


You can use those bonuses. You just can't maximize them all at once.

This is, by the way, in keeping with every single subcap link ship in the game. Command ships as slated will be able to run three links; they have two utility highs. They have to drop a weapon to run all three. T3 cruisers have to sacrfice damned near the whole fit to run a rack of links. The same with T1 battlecruisers. More than one, and you're giving up a midslot, and in most cases an extra high.



I understand your point and what other people that didn't like the proposition but i feel that the situation with Orca is different. If we put aside T1 battlecruisers and T3 cruisers and look at the Command ship that has more a specific role, in these you are able to simultaneously utilize them with less firepower. But in the case of Orca there is simply nothing.


It has nothing to do with whether or not I like the proposition. It is the way it is, and it is that way for a reason. CCP does not want you maximizing both the bonused uses of linking ships. You can simultaneously use tractors and links on an Orca. You simply may not fit a full rack of one while also running a full rack of the other.



What i am saying is that in the case of Orca i believe that there is no reason to make that penalty in this specific case. The is no full rack of the other here, i am just proposing only one additional high slot to put one tractor beam. It won't make the ship too powerful and there is no flexibility for sacrifices as in the others' cases.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#16 - 2013-08-31 20:43:10 UTC
Rowells wrote:

command ships only have to sacrfice a single turret, not all of them. orca doesn't have any of these extra slots.

maurauders can utilize all of their bonuses without any tradeoffs, they even have a bonus to assist them in doing this.

battlecruisers sacrifice, in most cases a single utility slot.

even the rorqual can fit all of its mods (3 links, tractor beam, Capital shield transporter, and indy core) without any trade-offs (unless you consider the clone bay a tradeoff, but it's not used in the same field support as the other modules).

considering that a T3 and battle cruiser are only bonused for 1 link it would make sense for them to make even heavier sacrfices tp run more than that. running multiple links is not their dedicated role.

the orca does not have these extra slots and modules to play with. and it is supposed to provide a hauler and booster for the fleet it is boosting since mining fleets don't have the same versatilities as combat gangs when it comes to choosing what ships to bring. The orca is the only ship that has to make such large sacrifices to fill it's intended roles. which, for the most part boils down to boosting and hauling.


1. The orca gets three links default. A full rack is three links. It gets a tractor bonus. A full rack is three tractors. (Limited by number of highs, being as tractors do not take hardpoints like weapons do.) It has three high slots. It cannot fit a full rack of three links, and bonused tractors. It cannot fit a full rack of bonused tractors, and links. It must decide which bonus it wants to maximize. A command ship must do the same. Five guns and two links? Or three links and four guns? It does not have enough high slots to maximize either. Apples to apples.

2. Marauders are not a link ship, and are irrelevant to the discussion.

3. The Rorq is an actual, jump-limited cap ship, and is irrelevant to the discussion, as you'll notice that I directly mention SUB CAP SHIPS. The Orca, regardless of CCPs weird hybridization, is not a capital ship; it can traverse stargates.

4. You miss the point that trade offs are GOING to be made. In the case of the Orca, do you want all the links, or do you want lazy-haul?

5. The Orca makes no sacrifices to fill any role. You decide which role you want it to fill, and must sacrifice accordingly.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#17 - 2013-08-31 20:45:34 UTC
Loyal Follower wrote:

What i am saying is that in the case of Orca i believe that there is no reason to make that penalty in this specific case. The is no full rack of the other here, i am just proposing only one additional high slot to put one tractor beam. It won't make the ship too powerful and there is no flexibility for sacrifices as in the others' cases.


You want it for a tractor. Guess what most other people are going to put in that slot, once they stick a command processor in the mids?
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-08-31 20:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Loyal Follower
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:

What i am saying is that in the case of Orca i believe that there is no reason to make that penalty in this specific case. The is no full rack of the other here, i am just proposing only one additional high slot to put one tractor beam. It won't make the ship too powerful and there is no flexibility for sacrifices as in the others' cases.


You want it for a tractor. Guess what most other people are going to put in that slot, once they stick a command processor in the mids?


Still the restriction will be for only 3 links to be able to use, if i understand correctly what you are thinking. So no useful use for a command processor.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-08-31 20:53:05 UTC
Loyal Follower wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:

What i am saying is that in the case of Orca i believe that there is no reason to make that penalty in this specific case. The is no full rack of the other here, i am just proposing only one additional high slot to put one tractor beam. It won't make the ship too powerful and there is no flexibility for sacrifices as in the others' cases.


You want it for a tractor. Guess what most other people are going to put in that slot, once they stick a command processor in the mids?


Still the restriction will be for only 3 links to be able to use, if i understand correctly what you are thinking. So no useful use for a command processor.


A command processor allows you to add an extra link. That's what it does on ships that are allowed to fit links.
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-08-31 20:58:35 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Loyal Follower wrote:

What i am saying is that in the case of Orca i believe that there is no reason to make that penalty in this specific case. The is no full rack of the other here, i am just proposing only one additional high slot to put one tractor beam. It won't make the ship too powerful and there is no flexibility for sacrifices as in the others' cases.


You want it for a tractor. Guess what most other people are going to put in that slot, once they stick a command processor in the mids?


Still the restriction will be for only 3 links to be able to use, if i understand correctly what you are thinking. So no useful use for a command processor.


A command processor allows you to add an extra link. That's what it does on ships that are allowed to fit links.



As i said no more than 3 links simultaneously can be used. You can also make the ship not in those that can fit command processors, to explicitly avoid the abuse.
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