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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Kane Fenris
NWP
#341 - 2013-08-30 00:16:17 UTC
while i like that something radical was done.... i greatly dislike the idea of imobility in that shipsize...
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#342 - 2013-08-30 00:16:58 UTC
Moridin Mandarb wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
To be fair it does state it makes them immune to e-war.


But that's only while in Bastion mode. When not, it suffers the same problem it always has.


In a PvP scenario, no one will want to use the Bastion module, due to the fact that even with the awesome resistances, they cannot hold up against 30 to 40 BSes shooting them at once, and not being able to receive remote reps.


Not every PvP scenario involves 30-40 BSs shooting at you.
Arien Fyre
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#343 - 2013-08-30 00:17:09 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.


regarding the 90% webs... both in pve and pvp... it's one of the best bonuses in game to be honest... so removing it is a huge nerf.

90% web is exactly enough to lower transversal on frigs for large guns to hit just fine
check out my old video as proff http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pgb2CdMDZ5w#t=209 , it shows a vindicator plowing through frigs which are within web range (pve mission in 0.0), also any good pilot will know you can align the targets direction and set your speed to match theirs to effectively remove transversal



at the moment my first reaction is i HATE these changes.

I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now.
Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer.

And a nerf to the drones??
At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones.
I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less.

Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships.

The changes seem great for PVP
But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason.
I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose.
Parish Kasrkin
Truly Fine Corporation
#344 - 2013-08-30 00:19:35 UTC
So, given the EXTREME similarity between the Bastion module and the Siege module, why not just make Bastion use the Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration skill and add the cycle time reduction to it? I mean... from what you've already said describing the visual effect of the module, they're literally tactically reconfiguring their weapons package. So why throw another long ass training time skill into the mix when you've already spent so much time training for Marauders? It seems like a silly sidestep.

That said, hnnnnnnnng those marauder changes dear god I can't wait to fly a Vargur.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#345 - 2013-08-30 00:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
BASTION MODULE

  • Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
  • Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
  • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
  • Has a cycle time of 80 seconds. Cycle is reduced by 5% for each level of Bastion module skill to a minimum of 60 seconds.
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
  • Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
  • Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
  • Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.

    • I love these proposed changes to the Marauders. Bastion only needs a few small tweaks:
    • When in Bastion mode, afterburners and microwarpdrives are disabled, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
    • Increases rate of fire by 10% and reduces reload time by 10% per skill level (while in Bastion mode)

    This is effectively the same as adding a damage modifier, without actually increasing damage - and only when in Bastion mode. And instead of rendering it stationary, the ship can still manuever (albeit at a greatly reduced rate). Thus, if you were traveling at full speed and activated Bastion it would function the same as turning afterburner or MWD off (it would gradually drop to the base speed).

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Waveform Disturbance
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #346 - 2013-08-30 00:20:49 UTC
    Tara Read wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos



    And you guys wonder why small ships are irrelevant in actual fights.


    Don't be mad Trouser. As for this whole change I like it! Just give the Kronos it's web bonus back Pirate


    MY GOD DON'T YOU DARE TAKE AWAY MY DREAM. I NEED THIS.
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #347 - 2013-08-30 00:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
    So, let me get this straight:

    On Monday, my X-Type Armor Rep will do 15% more rep...

    And then, this Winter, my Pally will also get a magic button that makes NPC EWAR not work...

    And my Falloff will be out to around 115k...

    And there'll be a 30% non-stacking EANM/DC...

    And my rep will increase by a further 100 PERCENT...

    AND there will be a cool animation associated will all of this ass kickery?


    ... Holy F**k.
    Marc McIntyre Crendraven
    Brave Empire Inc.
    Brave United
    #348 - 2013-08-30 00:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc McIntyre Crendraven
    2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it. And a damage bonus for the bastion module, maybe like 25% or more. other than that it looks great.

    Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #349 - 2013-08-30 00:26:47 UTC
    Can we please (please) change the color scheme on the Golem to something that actually looks Caldari? (like the Widow and Nighthawk)

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Tzel Mayon
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #350 - 2013-08-30 00:29:08 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Can we please (please) change the color scheme on the Golem to something that actually looks Caldari? (like the Widow and Nighthawk)


    How would you like your camouflage sir, practical? or Gaudy?

    :p
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #351 - 2013-08-30 00:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
    Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
    2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it.

    I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well.

    If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore.

    EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer.
    Markku Laaksonen
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #352 - 2013-08-30 00:31:02 UTC
    post

    saved for edits

    DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/

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    Nikolai Vodkov
    Pro Synergy
    #353 - 2013-08-30 00:33:29 UTC
    Aglais wrote:
    I can't decide if I want to sell my golem now or keep it. I've never really been a fan of MJDs, and Marauders now being built around them? Egh.

    Not to mention how abysmally slow and ponderous they are as of these changes, despite being based off of the Attack battleship hulls. :\ That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, personally.


    Either way you should hold on to it for a bit. Their price is going to skyrocket.

    Run level 4 missions?  Increase your income and help new players earn ISK.  Join channel: [b]Pro Synergy Pro Synergy[/b] is looking for dedicated Salvagers.  Want to learn more?  Join channel: Pro Synergy
    HazeInADaze
    Safari Hunt Club
    #354 - 2013-08-30 00:36:47 UTC
    I like these ideas. It will be interesting to see how they play out, but as ideas, I think they are great.

    Can the Marauder be scrammed while sieged or "bastioned"? Can the MJD be used while bastioned? Can the MJD be cycled up and timed with the bastion to jump the ship right after bastion ends?

    I'm really hoping so because daaaamn that would make this ship a lot more attractive in small/medium gang fights.

    And if you think that would be OP, bastion has the ship going 0m/s, so the marauder would require the full align time to warp out. 100km is not a difficult gap to cross in a battleship's align time. But it would make it very attractive to bring this ship into small scale engagements.
    Retmas
    Common Sense Ltd
    Nulli Secunda
    #355 - 2013-08-30 00:38:54 UTC
    HazeInADaze wrote:
    I like these ideas. It will be interesting to see how they play out, but as ideas, I think they are great.

    Can the Marauder be scrammed while sieged or "bastioned"? Can the MJD be used while bastioned? Can the MJD be cycled up and timed with the bastion to jump the ship right after bastion ends?

    I'm really hoping so because daaaamn that would make this ship a lot more attractive in small/medium gang fights.

    And if you think that would be OP, bastion has the ship going 0m/s, so the marauder would require the full align time to warp out. 100km is not a difficult gap to cross in a battleship's align time. But it would make it very attractive to bring this ship into small scale engagements.


    agreed.

    no, no, and i dont think so.

    still is, if you're a bit of a wizard with it.

    100km isnt such a long distance to cover with 60 seconds plus align time to get there. if you hit the bastion button, you're pretty much alamo'ing if you're not the one doing the engaging.
    Tzel Mayon
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #356 - 2013-08-30 00:39:38 UTC
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
    2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it.

    I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well.

    If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore.

    EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer.



    Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too.
    Aron Binchiette
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #357 - 2013-08-30 00:39:48 UTC
    SkupojHren wrote:
    what?i dont even know where to start

    Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

    why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

    also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5


    If no one answered your question already the missile velocity is like having a range and a tracking bonus because not only do they fly farther during the same flight time but now you can more effectively hit faster ships
    Bagu Oskold
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #358 - 2013-08-30 00:39:55 UTC
    Just let them point supers while in bastion mode. There. Now they do something completely unique to justify their crazy cost, and it fits in well with the 'siege cycle' like repercussions of bastion mode. Someone is a lot more likely to risk their expensive space guppy if it means they can pin down a space whale.
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #359 - 2013-08-30 00:43:06 UTC
    Tzel Mayon wrote:
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
    2 things this needs, a bigger bonus to the tractor beams, like 300% or more. 48 distance with tech 2 tractors just doesn't cut it.

    I second this suggestion. Now that we're talking about each Marauder being able to project, reliably, out to 100km... I think we need to be able to salvage out to that distance as well.

    If you're feeling generous, please increase the speed of the tractors too. Keep in mind that with the velocity nerf associated with these changes, burning to within range of the salvage isn't really practical anymore.

    EDIT: Removed the damage mod suggestion portion of the quote, as I do not support that. If anything, a buff to tracking/explosion velocity MAYBE. But I'm not going to beg for it. Not when you've just given me an indestructible transformer.



    Might as well increase the range of salvage drones too.

    This can be accomplished with modules. I can salvage at 65km, but I can only tractor at 48. It's not asking for much to extend that a little bit, especially when these changes make my speed 100 m/s and the mass renders AB's useless.
    BFE
    Shadow Flight
    #360 - 2013-08-30 00:44:35 UTC
    SkupojHren wrote:
    what?i dont even know where to start

    Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

    why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

    also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5


    That extra highslot is for the Bastion Module. However, I DO agree with missiles getting a 2nd bonus too, perhaps to explosion velocity, or something. With less drones available, you need to add something to help kill the frigs/destroyers....