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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2421 - 2013-08-23 12:38:57 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
- Its arguably the best HAC in large fleet with logi support


See, this is something that isn't mentioned enough. Scalability is a balancing factor, and, as was pointed out a page or two ago, it is a quality the Deimos simply doesn't have. The Sacrilege is an amazing ship, and it certainly scales well.



This.

Solo small gang yep, might be a tough thing to deal with, large fleets? -not sure at all and for heavy tackle Proteus is by far better suited/bonus than Deimos for ONLY double price tag cost, doesn't mean Proteus is cheap but rather Deimos is way too expensive for its small teeth.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
widgetman
Widgetland
#2422 - 2013-08-23 13:24:43 UTC
I did laugh at the changes to the Vagabond, a shield boost bonus on a 4 slot mid slot HAC, and got rid of the speed bonus.......
it is as if whoever looked at the changes had never flown a Vagabond...LMAO
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2423 - 2013-08-23 13:27:59 UTC
widgetman wrote:
I did laugh at the changes to the Vagabond, a shield boost bonus on a 4 slot mid slot HAC, and got rid of the speed bonus.......
it is as if whoever looked at the changes had never flown a Vagabond...LMAO


well at first glance perhaps. but then they gave all that speed back into the hull so it's now faster than the stabber the only HAC allowed to be faster than its attack cruiser ... and they gave it more fittings but not as much EHP as it needs for ASB to be really effective.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2424 - 2013-08-23 13:57:47 UTC
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2425 - 2013-08-23 14:39:10 UTC
It's not a nullified un-scramable winmatar boat, so it must be bad.

Everything else that's not winmatar is op.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2426 - 2013-08-23 14:43:27 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2427 - 2013-08-23 15:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


If I was a scientist in the T2 labs of New Eden I would be looking to make what I had already designed Better, Faster, Stronger.

I think it's entirely ok that a vagabond (140 million) is better than a stabber (6 million).

Why is there an obsession with specialisation? Why can't these ships just be better cruisers?

It seems a bit like saying that it's not OK to make an F-16 better at shooting down other aircraft than a P-59 mustang, because it's "not specialised". That makes no sense. It's simply an technological improvement that changes the game.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2428 - 2013-08-23 15:11:20 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


If I was a scientist in the T2 labs of New Eden I would be looking to make what I had already designed Better, Faster, Stronger.

I think it's entirely ok that a vagabond (140 million) is better than a stabber (6 million).

Why is there an obsession with specialisation? Why can't these ships just be better cruisers?

It seems a bit like saying that it's not OK to make an F-16 better at shooting down other aircraft than a P-59 mustang, because it's "not specialised". That makes no sense. It's simply an technological improvement that changes the game.



because navy are meant to be the better version... T2 is being better at something at the expense of something else...
Also why should minmatar be the only one allowed to do this?
otherwise Deimos should be better than the Thorax in every way but it isn't... so therefore the vaga should sacrifice some speed for the extra resilience it gains.. otherwise it will be the cheaty HAC

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2429 - 2013-08-23 15:13:06 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


and why this si automatically the vagas fault?

they changed the stabber with all t1 hulls before they changed the vaga when it was clear that the vaga wont end up in a new role when it gets changed.... so the only conclusion to be drawn from this is that the wanted it to be like this.
and why not?
if the isk drifference equals the power diffrence theres an argument for flying both ships dependent on your preferences fly cheap or fly most powerfull so there that trade off.

the staement you may be reffereing to that tey do not want t2 to be straight upgrades was a statement towards diversity.
and haveing one or two hulls wich break that rule strangely even adds diversity in general.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2430 - 2013-08-23 15:18:27 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
[
...
because navy are meant to be the better version... T2 is being better at something at the expense of something else...
Also why should minmatar be the only one allowed to do this?
otherwise Deimos should be better than the Thorax in every way but it isn't... so therefore the vaga should sacrifice some speed for the extra resilience it gains.. otherwise it will be the cheaty HAC


I cannot think of any way in which a thorax is better at anything than a deimos as things stand (this is a good thing).

The vagabond's speed is easily countered with a rapier, huginn, arazu or lachesis. *these* are specialised ships that really do give up something for their special abilities. Nevertheless, you can still shield tank an arazu pretty effectively and kit it out for close to 500dps. It's not helpless.

You can also counter a vagabond with an armageddon (5 neuts will slow the little b*stard down...)

As I see it, on grounds of cost alone the progression in cruiser power is:
T1, Navy, HAC

With other hull types working asymmetrically across this progression. (HAC has an easier time against a battleship than a battlecruiser, for example).

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2431 - 2013-08-23 15:39:50 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
[
...
because navy are meant to be the better version... T2 is being better at something at the expense of something else...
Also why should minmatar be the only one allowed to do this?
otherwise Deimos should be better than the Thorax in every way but it isn't... so therefore the vaga should sacrifice some speed for the extra resilience it gains.. otherwise it will be the cheaty HAC


I cannot think of any way in which a thorax is better at anything than a deimos as things stand (this is a good thing).

The vagabond's speed is easily countered with a rapier, huginn, arazu or lachesis. *these* are specialised ships that really do give up something for their special abilities. Nevertheless, you can still shield tank an arazu pretty effectively and kit it out for close to 500dps. It's not helpless.

You can also counter a vagabond with an armageddon (5 neuts will slow the little b*stard down...)

As I see it, on grounds of cost alone the progression in cruiser power is:
T1, Navy, HAC

With other hull types working asymmetrically across this progression. (HAC has an easier time against a battleship than a battlecruiser, for example).



Thorax is quicker and more agile and also has a tracking bonus...
and CCP don't see it your way
progression and divergence
T1 , Navy/ Pirate
T2 specialist
T3 Generalist

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2432 - 2013-08-23 16:13:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Thorax is quicker and more agile and also has a tracking bonus...
and CCP don't see it your way
progression and divergence
T1 , Navy/ Pirate
T2 specialist
T3 Generalist


I think the thorax's ability to get into trouble faster is a questionable improvement over the deimos' better staying power but ok, the analogy still works. A F16 needs more runway to get off the ground than an mustang, but I'll still take the F-16 thanks.

The first two steps of CCP's stated aim agree with my observations. The third is true for recons and logistics. But HACs? give me a break. They're just cruisers with beefed up weapons, armour, electronics and powergrids. They're Heavy Assault Cruisers: Heavy as in strongly armoured (and maybe a little slower as a result'?)

I don't see what else they could be.

The T3 configurable/generalisation thing is too b0rked for words. These ship in reality come in a very few game-breaking flavours:
1. cloaked scout with massive EHP
2. EHP of 2 battleships with battleship dps
3. unkillable shield tank lolpwnmobiles
4. rapier with 150k ehp
5. mega-tanked 100mn scorpion replacement
6. off-grid booster (soon to be deprecated)

The distinct price characteristics of the subsystems tell the whole story there.

T3s need to be made a lot weaker, and need to be changed to allow subsystem refitting in a POS. Then they'll be sensible. At the moment they just damage the gameplay of Eve.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2433 - 2013-08-23 16:26:57 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


Just going to throw out that if you think that T2 ships are going to be worse then the T1 base hulls you're fooling yourself. The only situations where I think the T2 version isn't a straight upgrade to the T1 are:

1. The ship gains the ability to jump (Blops, jump freighter)
2. The ship gains the ability to cloak
3. The ship gets interdiction bubbles of some sort

Now there are some situations where T1 ships have gone through tiericide and the T2 ships have different bonuses, particularly with EWAR ships, but I would expect all these ships to end up realigned with the T1 hull bonuses and be straight upgrades across the board.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2434 - 2013-08-23 17:30:46 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
- Its arguably the best HAC in large fleet with logi support


See, this is something that isn't mentioned enough. Scalability is a balancing factor, and, as was pointed out a page or two ago, it is a quality the Deimos simply doesn't have. The Sacrilege is an amazing ship, and it certainly scales well.



This.

Solo small gang yep, might be a tough thing to deal with, large fleets? -not sure at all and for heavy tackle Proteus is by far better suited/bonus than Deimos for ONLY double price tag cost, doesn't mean Proteus is cheap but rather Deimos is way too expensive for its small teeth.



Right, you can't fit a plate onto a Deimos. Or rails.

And it's rack of ion / neutron blasters with 550 dps are certainly "small teeth."

On a side note, is the Proteus really that cheap?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2435 - 2013-08-23 17:32:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


If I was a scientist in the T2 labs of New Eden I would be looking to make what I had already designed Better, Faster, Stronger.

I think it's entirely ok that a vagabond (140 million) is better than a stabber (6 million).

Why is there an obsession with specialisation? Why can't these ships just be better cruisers?

It seems a bit like saying that it's not OK to make an F-16 better at shooting down other aircraft than a P-59 mustang, because it's "not specialised". That makes no sense. It's simply an technological improvement that changes the game.



because navy are meant to be the better version... T2 is being better at something at the expense of something else...
Also why should minmatar be the only one allowed to do this?
otherwise Deimos should be better than the Thorax in every way but it isn't... so therefore the vaga should sacrifice some speed for the extra resilience it gains.. otherwise it will be the cheaty HAC


Lol, did you really just say the Deimos isn't better than the Thorax?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2436 - 2013-08-23 17:41:50 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


If I was a scientist in the T2 labs of New Eden I would be looking to make what I had already designed Better, Faster, Stronger.

I think it's entirely ok that a vagabond (140 million) is better than a stabber (6 million).

Why is there an obsession with specialisation? Why can't these ships just be better cruisers?

It seems a bit like saying that it's not OK to make an F-16 better at shooting down other aircraft than a P-59 mustang, because it's "not specialised". That makes no sense. It's simply an technological improvement that changes the game.



because navy are meant to be the better version... T2 is being better at something at the expense of something else...
Also why should minmatar be the only one allowed to do this?
otherwise Deimos should be better than the Thorax in every way but it isn't... so therefore the vaga should sacrifice some speed for the extra resilience it gains.. otherwise it will be the cheaty HAC


Lol, did you really just say the Deimos isn't better than the Thorax?


nope ... you obviously missed a bit ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sigras
Conglomo
#2437 - 2013-08-23 19:38:35 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version


If I was a scientist in the T2 labs of New Eden I would be looking to make what I had already designed Better, Faster, Stronger.

I think it's entirely ok that a vagabond (140 million) is better than a stabber (6 million).

Why is there an obsession with specialisation? Why can't these ships just be better cruisers?

It seems a bit like saying that it's not OK to make an F-16 better at shooting down other aircraft than a P-59 mustang, because it's "not specialised". That makes no sense. It's simply an technological improvement that changes the game.

The problem is that scientists in the real world arent worried about game balance.

Cost isnt enough of a balancing factor to justify a straight upgrade. To 90% of New Eden, me included, the difference in cost between a vagabond and a stabber is like the difference in cost between a can of soda and a 2 liter of soda. Sure if I dont need/want that much soda, ill save myself the extra cash but cost isnt going to be the determining factor in my purchase.

If you make one ship a straight upgrade to another you essentially remove the inferior ship from the game, or you relegate it to the status of "noob ship" what people fly if they are poor and cant afford better.

That isnt what I would call game balance.
Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax
#2438 - 2013-08-23 22:27:03 UTC
I've found this thread really interesting as I'm currently training towards HACs but I just wanted a little clarification, all this discussion of Ishtar and Deimos fits, particularly cap stability with local reppers, does sisi take into account the changes to rep amount that are due with 1.1 or are the calculations based on the current rep amount without the proposed changes?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2439 - 2013-08-23 23:29:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
vaga is way more powerful than it was. it doesn't run out of cap so quickly so it can kite for longer. it's as fast as it was before plus it gets the repair bonus so if it gets caught (unlikely) it will survive much longer than its predecessor.

do people who post here try the ships on sisi first, or is it only me?


It needs a speed nerf .. it shouldn't be faster than the stabber it looks like a straight upgrade to it rather than a T2 version

i think being faster IS the specialization. Stabber is a good speedboat. Vagabond is a better good speedboat.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2440 - 2013-08-23 23:36:04 UTC
The current Sisi build is 1.1, so it includes all the proposed changes, (cmd ships, med long range weapons, hacs, nos (lol), and whatever I've forgotten).

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8