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Why have leadership skills and fleet bonus'?

Author
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#1 - 2013-08-22 21:47:36 UTC
I have done a lot of leadership training in RL and the 'leadership' skills are at odds with every other skill in eve.

The skills in eve generally affect a stat for which a game mechanic is base around but the the leadership skills are effectly 'soft skills' that affect stats of others. Kinda out of touch with the rest of the skills imo.

This then brings me to fleet bonuses (?). Why do they exist? Surely the bonus of have fleet mates should be enough? The leadership shown in application by the FC will allow the fleet to 'perform' better than a rag tag bunch doing their own thing. The fllet bonuses are the root cause of the whole OGB's controversy atm. Just remove them alltogether and give the players those SP back.

The only fleet/leadership bonuses that work in a similar fashion to the rest of the eve skills are the mining ones, kinda, but I'd get rid of them as well.

Get back to eve being a sandbox where the skills of a character directly affect stats that are used in game mechanics and keep the 'soft' skills player focussed and allow them to utilise there character skills through team building and good tactics/fleet management.

And to counter the solo'ers who whine that they wouldn't be able to take on gangs etc in ther triple boosted/deadspace fitted faction frig. Aww boo hoo, get over it. The vast majority of people using boosters are not doing it to fight to blob (this has always happened, even before the whole boosts) but to give themselves an almost risk free '1v1' ability.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
High Bear Nation.
#2 - 2013-08-22 21:59:17 UTC
if youve done leadership training, you must have worked under a leader before. a leader is someone who has extra training to impart on his underlings to keep them safer, make them react better, or just change the way the act as a whole.

look at a bunch of high school football players.
now look at a bunch of NFL players. with good leadership and mentoring (and steroids), they become killer in their trade.

so we fleet up (since my toon has up to fleet commander 4), he has been through tons of training and knows how to direct the fleet to perform better. plus, he has command ship 5 and all boosting skills to 5. meaning, you can tap into my electronics and allow them to predict a course of action that will simulate having better armo (deflecting shots more), or better speed (by calculating a better flight path). he can tell you how better to adjust your radars or give you additional computing power to search out further.

minor things like just leadership skills dont affect that much, but a good leader CAN affect every aspect of your ship.
outstanding leaders (like general patton or churchill) can move mountains.

fleet up under my command ship with the implant (which would be like marching under patton with all of his staff and advisors) and you will gain all the benefits of a great leadership plus enhanced ship features normally not afforded to your ship.

external processors help tremendoously.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#3 - 2013-08-22 22:09:49 UTC
Killing some Full aspects of Eve solve Nothing just cripling the Game even more and take also more possibilites.
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#4 - 2013-08-22 22:12:49 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
if youve done leadership training, you must have worked under a leader before. a leader is someone who has extra training to impart on his underlings to keep them safer, make them react better, or just change the way the act as a whole.

look at a bunch of high school football players.
now look at a bunch of NFL players. with good leadership and mentoring (and steroids), they become killer in their trade.

so we fleet up (since my toon has up to fleet commander 4), he has been through tons of training and knows how to direct the fleet to perform better. plus, he has command ship 5 and all boosting skills to 5. meaning, you can tap into my electronics and allow them to predict a course of action that will simulate having better armo (deflecting shots more), or better speed (by calculating a better flight path). he can tell you how better to adjust your radars or give you additional computing power to search out further.

minor things like just leadership skills dont affect that much, but a good leader CAN affect every aspect of your ship.
outstanding leaders (like general patton or churchill) can move mountains.

fleet up under my command ship with the implant (which would be like marching under patton with all of his staff and advisors) and you will gain all the benefits of a great leadership plus enhanced ship features normally not afforded to your ship.

external processors help tremendoously.


All very true.

However a good NFL coach/leader cannot physically make his team run faster or hit harder than they have the ability to do. What he can do is ensure that they use their abilities to the maximum effectiveness they are capable of.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#5 - 2013-08-22 22:14:52 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Surely the bonus of have fleet mates should be enough?
Yes it is. Add that to the fact that fleet bonuses are way out of proportion with any other bonus in this game.....
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#6 - 2013-08-22 22:17:38 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Killing some Full aspects of Eve solve Nothing just cripling the Game even more and take also more possibilites.


How would this cripple anything in eve.

Fleets (gangs originally) used to form and function fine before all the boosting crap turned up.

If you want to gang up to get the benefit of having multiple people and a FC who knows what they are doing you don't need 'fleet boosts' or any of that ****. The boosting situation we are in now is because people are bloody lazy and don't want to invest the time to form relationships and skills (player) to run effective fleets. This is an MMO after all. One that is famous for not handing stuff on a plate to it's player but rewards time/patience and creative thinking.

IMO the whole boosting debacle is what is crippling creative thought in eve as the general thoughts in game are if you are not boosted to the max you are doing it wrong. Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#7 - 2013-08-22 22:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
Geeze so much Warefare Link hate, these days.

Is this the next "AFK Cloak" Troll atempt?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-08-22 22:33:27 UTC
What else am I going to do with 14 million SP? :/
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#9 - 2013-08-22 22:41:44 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Geeze so much Warefare Link hate, these days.

Is this the next "AFK Cloak" Troll atempt?


LOL

TBH I really couldn't give two hoots about the OGB'ing and warefare links as I never use them when I'm out solo. I am true solo, 1 toon, 1 account (I'm too lazy to run multiple accounts), which probably why my kb is so bad Twisted

I do use them when the corp guys are fleeted up and have their boosts out as it is a leveling effect against the galls who use them.

My OP was exploring the root cause/reason why they are here and if they are 'needed' (not wanted) and if it would actualy change much if they were removed?

And as for AFK cloaking. LOL if an AFK player affects your actions even though they are not directly affecting you then you are doing it wrong Shocked

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#10 - 2013-08-22 22:42:21 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
What else am I going to do with 14 million SP? :/



Stick them into other stuff! easy when you think about it.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2013-08-22 23:13:05 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Surely the bonus of have fleet mates should be enough?
Yes it is. Add that to the fact that fleet bonuses are way out of proportion with any other bonus in this game.....


No they aren't, they're stacking penalized like pretty much every other raw bonus and several of them don't even stack period (the sig bonus from a Ragnarok comes to mind). They're extremely useful in reinforcing a fleet and their bonuses make some otherwise nonviable fleet-comps viable.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-08-22 23:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
why they are here:

It is mmo law....

Thou shall have buff's.
Thou shall have raids (incursions for the eve types who don't use "wow" terms)
Thou shall have healz (logisitics for the eve purists)
Thou shall have crafiting (invention and industry for eve purists)
etc....


MMO's have buffs, its an expected feature.


The NFL example, a bad one. Dozens of players players lead by big money and contract incentive's. A better real life exmaple would be 3 months of fun and excitement in say Parris Island. You will see this mysterious leadership effect clearly there. When the heavy hat DI has the mean look directed at you, you dig deep and hard to give 110%. If only to get him looking at some other recruit chesse dicking it. For non Marines the heavy hats are the DI's (Drill Instructors) who are there to be overtly mean and menacing. They are more leadership out of fear than respect at first.

Then when a Marine you get that leadership who you push harder for since letting them down would be like letting your say father down. I have had CO's I would even run a 100m dash to make Jesse Owens look slow to take a bullet for him and worked much hard for in garrison.

I also have had other CO's.....lets jsut say I'd be in no rush to say "Look out sir". hell in the deep dark parts of my mind...if it came to someone jumping on a grenade, 1 co I have in mind would probably be thrown on it and I lie after and say he sacrificed himself for us. Sad thing is anyway one else nearby would back up the lie. Basically in eve terms in eve terms he would give negative leadership debuffs, this guy failed at motivatiion....damn good at demotivation though.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#13 - 2013-08-22 23:39:49 UTC
Yeah, just remove them. They are odd.

I have a Leadership 5 alt I used as a scout in lowsec for a while (he's in null now). Very strange that a character with a single kill to his name could boost this character's performance just by being fleeted in the same system. I never understood the logic behind that.

Just remove them and bring links on grid.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-08-22 23:45:26 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
All very true.

However a good NFL coach/leader cannot physically make his team run faster or hit harder than they have the ability to do. What he can do is ensure that they use their abilities to the maximum effectiveness they are capable of.
Seeing as we have skills that can affect solid stats (armor for instance, how does knowing about armor let you have more?) leadership skills aren't very different in that aspect. And citing the NFL players, a good coach can push his players to reach their limits and possibly play harder than they normally would, or thought they could.

It was mentioned earlier that the boosts are a bit out of line compared to other things, but in my opinion the skills themselseves aren't out of line at all (usually 10% bonus at max skills). when you combine skills with links, then they become pretty big. however it's two seperate things working together to make this kind of unproportional boost.

However the power of some links is a bit much currently and most of the nerfs to ganglinks are bringing them in line with what modules can do.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-08-22 23:56:46 UTC
No argument here. I'd happily use my 14 million skillpoints elsewhere...

A well-commanded fleet (by a human FC) will always outperform a collection of ships that happen to have shield buffs all doing their own thing.

When I run a fleet, I take command - fleet boosts or no fleet boosts.

Definitely +1 from me.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cheng Jaboo
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-08-23 00:11:27 UTC
Oh look, another attempt to make my Avatar all the more worthless.
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#17 - 2013-08-23 00:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Zan Shiro wrote:
why they are here:

It is mmo law....

Thou shall have buff's.
Thou shall have raids (incursions for the eve types who don't use "wow" terms)
Thou shall have healz (logisitics for the eve purists)
Thou shall have crafiting (invention and industry for eve purists)
etc....


MMO's have buffs, its an expected feature.


The NFL example, a bad one. Dozens of players players lead by big money and contract incentive's. A better real life exmaple would be 3 months of fun and excitement in say Parris Island. You will see this mysterious leadership effect clearly there. When the heavy hat DI has the mean look directed at you, you dig deep and hard to give 110%. If only to get him looking at some other recruit chesse dicking it. For non Marines the heavy hats are the DI's (Drill Instructors) who are there to be overtly mean and menacing. They are more leadership out of fear than respect at first.

Then when a Marine you get that leadership who you push harder for since letting them down would be like letting your say father down. I have had CO's I would even run a 100m dash to make Jesse Owens look slow to take a bullet for him and worked much hard for in garrison.

I also have had other CO's.....lets jsut say I'd be in no rush to say "Look out sir". hell in the deep dark parts of my mind...if it came to someone jumping on a grenade, 1 co I have in mind would probably be thrown on it and I lie after and say he sacrificed himself for us. Sad thing is anyway one else nearby would back up the lie. Basically in eve terms in eve terms he would give negative leadership debuffs, this guy failed at motivatiion....damn good at demotivation though.


Very true also.

The military example is much better than the NFL one and one that I think does rationalise the use of the 'leaderships' skills.

However I also have a military background and the ability to make the troops push that 110% is really knowing what they are capable of as by definition you can only work at 100% ability. It is knowing when their actual ability is greater than what thye percieve it to be and giving them the confidence/motivation to push themselves to the max. Kind of like OH'ing in eve.

On the point above about how to do skills give you 'extra' armour for e.g. - This is one of the exact things I was trying to get people to think about with the OP. However this is a direct effect to that player only not a blanket effect to multiple players across the system. which like I mentioned before is an imbalance in the way in which skills generally work in eve.

On the whole I'm not too fussed about the actual leadership skills themselves but more that they are a starting point for the OGB situation we are in now. The other aspect of my OP was to ask the question of "Do we need leadership skills and how would it affect the game as a whole if they were removed?" seeing as there is a big divide among the playerbase around the OGB's.

I am looking at this from a systemic point of view in a game mechanic that kicks up a lot of arguements that also uses skills/module/abilities that are not congruant to the rest of the eve working.

At the end of the day I'll adapt my playstyle to take OGB's/fleet bonuses into account when i'm flying solo/fleeted. This is more of a mental exercise I like to put myself though on occasion. Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Sigras
Conglomo
#18 - 2013-08-23 07:27:26 UTC
Gang bonuses are good because they give people interesting decisions to make. Or at least they will/should when theyre forced on grid.

When theyre forced on grid and you arent able to just bring an alt and never worry about it, then you'll have to ask yourself as a FC, do i want another full strength ship or do i want gang bonuses?

It also gives the enemy interesting choices to make, Do i shoot at their heavily tanked ship and make the whole fleet weaker or do i ignore it and just deal with the gang bonuses.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-08-23 09:25:40 UTC
Leadership skills are like Intelligence skills or Creativity skills or Memory skills.

Leadership skills are to players who are good leaders the same as Intelligence skills would be to players who are intelligent, or Creativity skills would be to players who are creative, or Memory skills would be to players who have a good memory . . . or Large-breastedness skills would be to players who have large breasts. It's kind of a whacky idea, but it does pay homage to the synergy that certain individuals are able to facilitate in groups that they are a member of. But you have to wonder what the justification was for giving a player a base 10% increase in all income earned at Large-breastedness level V (i.e., if I don't have this quality, why should the game bonus me for having this quality)?

In the wider view, it seems like a nerf to actual leadership, since a player who is a good leader may or may not decide to train such skills, whereas a player who lacks leadership abilities will definitely want to train Leadership skills to offset some of that advantage that the good leader has over him.
Vartan Sarkisian
Tannhauser C-Beam
Lux Collective
#20 - 2013-08-23 09:56:20 UTC
I don’t really have that many leadership skills but I think the OP makes an interesting point. It seems that the essence behind these skills has become twisted. If looking at the example of what a good RL leader would gain from his troops, then perhaps the boosts that the leadership skills provide. For example perhaps alignment should be a bit quicker, warp speed slightly quicker, lock speed slightly quicker etc, these would be things that a good leader would possibly provide his fleet mates.
Boosts that provide extra armour etc are ridiculous
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