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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2381 - 2013-08-22 17:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Either way, a Deimos can run the repper, tackle, and guns on cap recharge alone which leads to infinite tanking potential against a wide variety of similar sized targets.


Actually Jerick, although you are my dear friend, I'll have to call you on that one. It's not quite true. See the calculation 2 posts prior.

I will grant you that it can run the guns, tank and tackle for a *fair while* without a booster (provided there are no neuts on the field), but not forever.

Having done the calculation above, it becomes very obvious to me how important neut ships are going to be when fighting HACs. Fortunately, there is already a plated armageddon waiting in the SMA of my POS.

Let the games begin!


If you don't use a rep speed rig (nano acell) it's cap stable, if you have a nano acell, it's just barley not. fit it up on sisi, undock, and run your repper. You will see that I'm not really wrong in my statement. BTW, i do roll ca-1 and ca-2 increasing my cap by a small margin as well.

Now if you fit a reactive armor hardener, that perma tank cap stability is most certainly not true.

But you are correct, in terms of "Actual fits" which include a nano accel, it's not 100% cap stable (cheers for calling me on that). Then again, turning your repper off for a couple cycles during the overall cap depletion duration will get you back to "stable"


On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2382 - 2013-08-22 17:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Either way, a Deimos can run the repper, tackle, and guns on cap recharge alone which leads to infinite tanking potential against a wide variety of similar sized targets.


Actually Jerick, although you are my dear friend, I'll have to call you on that one. It's not quite true. See the calculation 2 posts prior.

I will grant you that it can run the guns, tank and tackle for a *fair while* without a booster (provided there are no neuts on the field), but not forever.

Having done the calculation above, it becomes very obvious to me how important neut ships are going to be when fighting HACs. Fortunately, there is already a plated armageddon waiting in the SMA of my POS.

Let the games begin!


If you don't use a rep speed rig (nano acell) it's cap stable, if you have a nano acell, it's just barley not. fit it up on sisi, undock, and run your repper. You will see that I'm not really wrong in my statement.


The numbers I quoted above (take a look) come from a deimos fitted with dual nano pumps. If you fit a nanobot accelerator the cap depletion from the armour repairer (of either type) rises to 22.2 per unit. For this reason I avoid the nanobot accelerator in all my fits.

For an armour tanker, victory lies in cap efficiency. The counter for armour tankers is neuts. 2 neuts are troublesome to a deimos. 3 neuts are deadly.

If you're worried about OP HACs, don't get too distracted with the deimos - look closely at the ishtar. utra-tracking Heavy EM or explosive drones + multiple neuts + a massive shield tank + the ability to engage at any range.

Look at its price in Jita. The market knows...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2383 - 2013-08-22 17:45:27 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Phaade wrote:


As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.


Umm as a point of order that diemost that you are complaining about likely was only running a point and the guns on cap. MAARs sort of don't use any, and MARs wouldn't be able to tank that (well they can buy it takes exile boosters)

.....unless you were doing something silly like shooting scourge at it into its strongest resist and never changed damage types, because no one would ever do that? Right?



What part of PERMANENTLY tanking 500 dps did you not understand? I went through like 5 - 6 reload cycles. Thats not a MAAR, its a MAR II
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2384 - 2013-08-22 17:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Phaade wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Phaade wrote:


As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.


Umm as a point of order that diemost that you are complaining about likely was only running a point and the guns on cap. MAARs sort of don't use any, and MARs wouldn't be able to tank that (well they can buy it takes exile boosters)

.....unless you were doing something silly like shooting scourge at it into its strongest resist and never changed damage types, because no one would ever do that? Right?



What part of PERMANENTLY tanking 500 dps did you not understand? I went through like 5 - 6 reload cycles. Thats not a MAAR, its a MAR II


Yeah then he was also using boosters or you were shooting into its strong resist.

Even then if it was an AB fit you were doing about 12 damage to start with if you were shooting scouge and he had his resists right you were doing about 85dps.
Arieth Cash
Doomheim
#2385 - 2013-08-22 17:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arieth Cash
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

So, strategy for killing a deimos with 800 plate + single MAAR or MAR is:
2 medium neuts while applying moderate EM or explosive damage. Stay alive for 5 minutes and you'll win.
With that in mind, now let's examine whether we can build a nighthawk that will tank 700dps of kin/therm for 5 minutes. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader, since I'm not going to to all the work of telling you how to fit a ship.


I think a TD, or simply the good old *run away* is a better option.
Cap to run 2 neuts, repair 700 dps/sec while performing enough damage to force the deimos to use his cap during 5 minutes does not look a small feat. Since you gave as an example a t2 bc, I sincerelly hope they can do it easily since they should be *tanking* monsters.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2386 - 2013-08-22 17:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Good post mourn, I'm sitting just under cap stable with the suggested fit (you're right, it's not perma 100% cap stable). I'll probably be rolling to nano pumps over nanobots as a second rig on all t2 active from this point forward even if the second one is stacking penned. The lost of some 7% overall tank most certainly seems worthy of the significant cap efficiency gain of the tank.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2387 - 2013-08-22 17:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Arieth Cash wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

So, strategy for killing a deimos with 800 plate + single MAAR or MAR is:
2 medium neuts while applying moderate EM or explosive damage. Stay alive for 5 minutes and you'll win.
With that in mind, now let's examine whether we can build a nighthawk that will tank 700dps of kin/therm for 5 minutes. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader, since I'm not going to to all the work of telling you how to fit a ship.


I think a TD, or simply the good old *run away* is a better option.
Cap to run 2 neuts, repair 700 dps/sec while performing enough damage to force the deimos to use his cap does not look a small feat. Since you gave as an example a t2 bc, I sincerelly hope they can do it easily since they should me *tanking* monsters.



Actually I had a re-think about this. The NH does not even need to tank 700 dps of kin/therm. It only needs to tank 550. The NH has drones with which it can harrass the medium drones of the deimos in a 1:1, thus the deimos' damage output is really only 550 max.

In kin/therm the NH can tank that with 1 large ASB and 1 invulerability field (not even overheated, no links, no implants, no boosters). Note that this is an example, it may be that better results can be achieved with a shield booster.

Of course, the NH is not the ideal ship for the job, it's designed for a buffer tank (in my view) but this was the example provided.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2388 - 2013-08-22 18:12:31 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2389 - 2013-08-22 18:59:53 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.



Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2390 - 2013-08-22 19:06:52 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.



Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.



This thread seems to be moving from ship to ship, realizing how they can all be awesome at what they're supposed to do.

I GREATLY look forward to HACs being a big thing in both small gang and large fleet.

I may even train amarr cruiser V in the near future. :)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2391 - 2013-08-22 19:08:57 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.



Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.



This thread seems to be moving from ship to ship, realizing how they can all be awesome at what they're supposed to do.

I GREATLY look forward to HACs being a big thing in both small gang and large fleet.

I may even train amarr cruiser V in the near future. :)


I'd love to know how the eagle is awesome at anything .. besides being slow

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2392 - 2013-08-22 19:16:05 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.



Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.



This thread seems to be moving from ship to ship, realizing how they can all be awesome at what they're supposed to do.

I GREATLY look forward to HACs being a big thing in both small gang and large fleet.

I may even train amarr cruiser V in the near future. :)


I'd love to know how the eagle is awesome at anything .. besides being slow



Eagle is going to be hard to call. It may be another muninn, in that it will depend heavily on the tactical genius of a fleet commander and disciplined line members that actually switch props when told, align where told, and orbit when told. Like the deimos, it's getting another mid slot and just enough PG and CPU increase to fit a dual prop. In addition to the rail buff, that may make it viable as a fleet boat.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2393 - 2013-08-22 19:17:46 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:


Eagle is going to be hard to call. It may be another muninn, in that it will depend heavily on the tactical genius of a fleet commander and disciplined line members that actually switch props when told, align where told, and orbit when told. Like the deimos, it's getting another mid slot and just enough PG and CPU increase to fit a dual prop. In addition to the rail buff, that may make it viable as a fleet boat.



Dual prop won't apply to fleet builds.

A couple SeBos and a bit of spike it could be great anti-support. But we'll see. I haven't gotten to putz with that one yet.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2394 - 2013-08-22 19:31:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:


Eagle is going to be hard to call. It may be another muninn, in that it will depend heavily on the tactical genius of a fleet commander and disciplined line members that actually switch props when told, align where told, and orbit when told. Like the deimos, it's getting another mid slot and just enough PG and CPU increase to fit a dual prop. In addition to the rail buff, that may make it viable as a fleet boat.



Dual prop won't apply to fleet builds.

A couple SeBos and a bit of spike it could be great anti-support. But we'll see. I haven't gotten to putz with that one yet.



Au contraire. Dual prop allows the eagle fleet to reposition the fleet mid-engagement while bubbled, and hold onto range advantage against other HAC fleets. Zealot fleet is afterburner fit only. So you'll use the microwarp to pull range rather than disengaging, then switch off to preserve capacitor. Against battleship fleets, MWD will allow the fleet to move in closer while swapping to javelin ammunition, and the prop prevents the fleet from taking damage while under large guns. Since the eagle has a double optimal bonus to hybrids, the only weaponry that will outrange it is battleship class. It requires the ship be flown intelligently, but it has a niche.

But again, that might be complicated for line members. :/
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2395 - 2013-08-22 19:45:29 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:


Eagle is going to be hard to call. It may be another muninn, in that it will depend heavily on the tactical genius of a fleet commander and disciplined line members that actually switch props when told, align where told, and orbit when told. Like the deimos, it's getting another mid slot and just enough PG and CPU increase to fit a dual prop. In addition to the rail buff, that may make it viable as a fleet boat.



Dual prop won't apply to fleet builds.

A couple SeBos and a bit of spike it could be great anti-support. But we'll see. I haven't gotten to putz with that one yet.



Au contraire. Dual prop allows the eagle fleet to reposition the fleet mid-engagement while bubbled, and hold onto range advantage against other HAC fleets. Zealot fleet is afterburner fit only. So you'll use the microwarp to pull range rather than disengaging, then switch off to preserve capacitor. Against battleship fleets, MWD will allow the fleet to move in closer while swapping to javelin ammunition, and the prop prevents the fleet from taking damage while under large guns. Since the eagle has a double optimal bonus to hybrids, the only weaponry that will outrange it is battleship class. It requires the ship be flown intelligently, but it has a niche.

But again, that might be complicated for line members. :/



Its a heavy range hull, there is no need for the AB, you wouldn't be using it as a comp of its own, you have to dual prop, which means you are making seriously fitting compromises, notably in the tank department. Factor that with the +sig nature of a shield tank to start with and its vulnerability to anything that can use a painter.....yeah, way to easily countered.

As an anti-support sniper in a heavier fleet it would be pretty effective, much in the same fashion that alliances use inta canes.....the reason being the shield tank.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2396 - 2013-08-22 20:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.



As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.



This is a problem with HAM damage projection against sig tanking cruisers, rather than the problem of MARs on the deimos. ~600 DPS nighthawk putting faction missiles on a cruiser with 150m sig and 600 m/s is dealing under 275 actual damage. Consider also that to get the whole posted 600 DPS on the nighthawk, that must be kinetic damage, to which the deimos is exceptionally well-tanked (Just short of 90% with one EANM). It takes much less cap to pulse your armor reps on the deimos and keep the AB running than it is to keep the reps running. After resists and speed, you're suddenly doing a little under 30 dps.


Was switching between EM / Exp damage due to the reactive. With these damage types my dps was roughly 500. I also had a web / scram, so speed wasn't too much of a problem. I believe he was also MWD fit, not sure if dual prop or not.

To the tard above who thinks the Deimos is balanced because he can find a couple counters to this ship; I have a hard time arguing with such statements, as they make no sense.
Just because your Deimos can lose to a faction BS does not mean it is balanced. It certainly can't be killed by anything smaller than that unless it was specifically and completely designed to kill a specific Deimos fit. Nothing CS down can apply enough damage to kill it.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2397 - 2013-08-22 20:04:15 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.


I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.



Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.


The Sac will lose to the Deimos in a brawl. If you want to try a kiting Sac, be my guest, but you still won't break the Deimos.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2398 - 2013-08-22 20:18:18 UTC
Phaade wrote:
[quote=Onictus]

The Sac will lose to the Deimos in a brawl. If you want to try a kiting Sac, be my guest, but you still won't break the Deimos.



You are right I broke about three of them.
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#2399 - 2013-08-22 20:46:35 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:


It requires the ship be flown intelligently, but it has a niche.

But again, that might be complicated for line members. :/


This is code for it is a bad ship.

Just compare it to the Ishtar since I fly both. How does anything the Eagle have compensate for the Ishtar having +125 drone bandwidth. + 1 gun? LOLOLOLOL
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#2400 - 2013-08-22 20:58:48 UTC
so has the utility high slot been swapped to a low slot of the sac yet?

OMG when can i get a pic here