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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#2361 - 2013-08-22 15:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
Roime wrote:

The times when all armor tanked blaster ships were free killmails to everyone who could press "keep at range" are over.


-.-
ffs, not the point.
Some ships are over-specialized and will continue to not see much use. Others will be over used.
What is this "tiericide" for then? If it does not even fix this usage balance (like it happened to frigs/cruisers), is just a re-shuffle.

And tbh I don't think the old age of "approach" was much more interesting, but what ever rides your boat.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2362 - 2013-08-22 15:21:18 UTC
Quote:
also forum lurker here and i just want to point out that this argument in general right now is pretty hilarious, you wont or almost never see a dual repped deimos on TQ post patch, fitted like that the ship will have so little armor hp that you could essentially alpha the ship or bleed into hull in between each rep cycle. 800 plate (or if implanted 1600) + MAAR is pretty much the brawling way to go and you wont last forever like that. 


Someone gets it!!! Hallapenyo!
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2363 - 2013-08-22 15:26:11 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
also forum lurker here and i just want to point out that this argument in general right now is pretty hilarious, you wont or almost never see a dual repped deimos on TQ post patch, fitted like that the ship will have so little armor hp that you could essentially alpha the ship or bleed into hull in between each rep cycle. 800 plate (or if implanted 1600) + MAAR is pretty much the brawling way to go and you wont last forever like that. 


Someone gets it!!! Hallapenyo!


I think we all get it, and I agree - I am a convert to the way of the 800 plate + single repper.

There is a lot of alarm as to the dual-repping power of the deimos, and I agree in practice these fits will not last on TQ.

In fact this discussion has caused me to wonder about refitting my brutix to be a buffer/rep hybrid rather than dual-rep with nosferatu.

I wonder if that's what the original designer of armour rep ships intended all those years ago?

Even a hyperion, with 1600 plate and LAAR starts to make sense, certainly in a small fleet scenario - that's something like 100k ehp plus 500 ehp/second.

interesting times...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2364 - 2013-08-22 15:48:59 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
If anything, the ships able to perma run a MAR off cap recharge should be command ships, not a hac(s)....


Survival in a local tanker, whether shield or armour, is dependant on the capacitor staying solvent. It seems reasonable to me that these front line, first in ships should be fast and strong since they will take the most punishment.



To the gallente trolls saying FINALLY you have a solo pwnmobile, wtf is wrong with you? The idea of the HAC rebalance isnt to give to players ONE solo pwnmobile.

And finally, to gents asking about how to 'nerf' the sisi Deimos, well where to begin, the 4th mid wasnt required, but was given as essentially Med neut counter. The only same/sub class counter to the Deimos then is TDs.

To those asking 'how':

Since the utopian option of 'lets buff ALL HACs so they can brawl as effectively as the Deimos' will never happen, my suggestion, in addition to the many, many, many times already stated in this thread, nerf the cap/cap recharge on Deimos, so it frankly at least FEEL some pressure when under a med neut AND half its fall-off bonus, if youre going to give it the local rep bonus, improved local reps modules AND a 4th mid.

Seriously, where is Rise? This Blaster boat lovefest is getting a bit stupid.


Yolo, umadbro??

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2365 - 2013-08-22 16:06:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
also forum lurker here and i just want to point out that this argument in general right now is pretty hilarious, you wont or almost never see a dual repped deimos on TQ post patch, fitted like that the ship will have so little armor hp that you could essentially alpha the ship or bleed into hull in between each rep cycle. 800 plate (or if implanted 1600) + MAAR is pretty much the brawling way to go and you wont last forever like that. 


Someone gets it!!! Hallapenyo!


I think we all get it, and I agree - I am a convert to the way of the 800 plate + single repper.

There is a lot of alarm as to the dual-repping power of the deimos, and I agree in practice these fits will not last on TQ.

In fact this discussion has caused me to wonder about refitting my brutix to be a buffer/rep hybrid rather than dual-rep with nosferatu.

I wonder if that's what the original designer of armour rep ships intended all those years ago?

Even a hyperion, with 1600 plate and LAAR starts to make sense, certainly in a small fleet scenario - that's something like 100k ehp plus 500 ehp/second.

interesting times...


I believe that came from trial and error back in the day and the way armor reps work.

Since you need to "wait" until the cycle hits, you need to have that "backup armor" on your boat until the rep is giving you back the armor hp.

That's why the plate + rep combo works so well.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2366 - 2013-08-22 16:47:21 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.



As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2367 - 2013-08-22 16:55:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Phaade wrote:


As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.


Umm as a point of order that diemost that you are complaining about likely was only running a point and the guns on cap. MAARs sort of don't use any, and MARs wouldn't be able to tank that (well they can buy it takes exile boosters)

.....unless you were doing something silly like shooting scourge at it into its strongest resist and never changed damage types, because no one would ever do that? Right?
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2368 - 2013-08-22 16:57:49 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.



As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.


Childish comments will get you nothing. I prefer a more of a mature approach to debate, but I'll indulge you just once and suggest that you read a few posts ahead of this one. You'll find several very effective counters for the Deimos listed. And, for the record, just because YOU have an experience against or with a certain hull doesn't mean that experience will be repeated with all other pilots. Many pilots are winning and losing in that ship every day on Sisi. I'll not rehash all the ways it happens here.
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#2369 - 2013-08-22 16:58:29 UTC
AARs use cap....
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2370 - 2013-08-22 16:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
MAARs sort of don't use any (capacitor)


MAARs do use the exact same amount of cap as MARs, with or without nanopaste.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2371 - 2013-08-22 17:00:10 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.



As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.



This is a problem with HAM damage projection against sig tanking cruisers, rather than the problem of MARs on the deimos. ~600 DPS nighthawk putting faction missiles on a cruiser with 150m sig and 600 m/s is dealing under 275 actual damage. Consider also that to get the whole posted 600 DPS on the nighthawk, that must be kinetic damage, to which the deimos is exceptionally well-tanked (Just short of 90% with one EANM). It takes much less cap to pulse your armor reps on the deimos and keep the AB running than it is to keep the reps running. After resists and speed, you're suddenly doing a little under 30 dps.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2372 - 2013-08-22 17:02:34 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Urkhan Law wrote:
What a mess, deimos works with blasters or rails, I don't see vaga working with arties or munnin with auto-cannons or eagle with blasters. I though that the tiericide/rebalance was to end with this mess, instead you're just shuffling the cards again, some ships to the top, others to the bottom, we'll get back at it in a few months/years.


Vaga with arties? -of course it can needs to do trade offs like Deimos does but yes it can

Autos Munnin? -why don't you try it out? -did you already projected dps potential out of it? -you didn't that's why.

Eagle with blasters gets battleship EHP with a huge resist profile and traded some speed to actually hit with blasters at rails Deimost range.

No problems or imbalances here, just tradeoffs, you guys need to be a bit more creative and think/see out of your little box.


The Eagle is okay at brawling, it will take down most t1's BC down.....but optimal bonuses don't do a damn thing for blasters. Falloff is FAR superior.

If you want to brawl with blasters and you choose the Eagle, you ****** up.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2373 - 2013-08-22 17:05:25 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.



As respectfully as possible, you are full of ****.

The Deimos, as proven on Singularity, is nearly unkillable. You put a reactive armor hardener on it and my god, after 30-60 seconds, your dps is absolute crap.

I engaged a Deimos in a Nighthawk with 5x HAMs and 2x Neuts. It perma-tanked 500 dps under neut pressure. That is not reasonable. With cap boosters? Sure. With a NOS or 2? Sure. With base cap regen alone? NO.

Explain to me how that's reasonable. Please.



This is a problem with HAM damage projection against sig tanking cruisers, rather than the problem of MARs on the deimos. ~600 DPS nighthawk putting faction missiles on a cruiser with 150m sig and 600 m/s is dealing under 275 actual damage. Consider also that to get the whole posted 600 DPS on the nighthawk, that must be kinetic damage, to which the deimos is exceptionally well-tanked (Just short of 90% with one EANM). It takes much less cap to pulse your armor reps on the deimos and keep the AB running than it is to keep the reps running. After resists and speed, you're suddenly doing a little under 30 dps.


For a cruiser to be doing 600m/s it's going to be using an afterburner. Whether it's AB only or dual-prop it'll have to have made sacrifices somewhere else in order to do this.

It's an unusual fit, except in the case of a cynabal (or maybe the new vaga?)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2374 - 2013-08-22 17:09:53 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:



This is a problem with HAM damage projection against sig tanking cruisers, rather than the problem of MARs on the deimos. ~600 DPS nighthawk putting faction missiles on a cruiser with 150m sig and 600 m/s is dealing under 275 actual damage. Consider also that to get the whole posted 600 DPS on the nighthawk, that must be kinetic damage, to which the deimos is exceptionally well-tanked (Just short of 90% with one EANM). It takes much less cap to pulse your armor reps on the deimos and keep the AB running than it is to keep the reps running. After resists and speed, you're suddenly doing a little under 30 dps.


For a cruiser to be doing 600m/s it's going to be using an afterburner. Whether it's AB only or dual-prop it'll have to have made sacrifices somewhere else in order to do this.

It's an unusual fit, except in the case of a cynabal (or maybe the new vaga?)



They gave us a 50% MWD sig bloom, just enough PG and CPU upgrade to fit an AB in that extra mid slot, and I intend to use it! :)

At least, for a little while. We'll see, once it drops on Tranquility, if it actually survives real EVE combat. I tend to fly with small gangs rather than solo, however.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2375 - 2013-08-22 17:10:11 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
MAARs sort of don't use any (capacitor)


MAARs do use the exact same amount of cap as MARs, with or without nanopaste.



Your right, brain damage.

Since I can't be arsed to download a sisi fitter I have to fire up the test server. I had a deimost fitted up but it didn't see, like all that.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2376 - 2013-08-22 17:19:14 UTC
I was just thinking about the recent post about the effects of dual neuts on the nighthawk v. deimos.

Let's do this scientifically rather than insulting each other:

Givens for deimos cap performance:
effective peak cap recharge: +20/s (we can't keep it at the sweet spot all the time, and don't forget the effects of the MWD)
Single MAR or MAAR: -17.8
Web: -0.68/s
Scram: -0.68/s
Heavy Ion blasters w/void x 5: -5.65/s
2 Incoming medium neuts: -21.2/s
explosive hardener: -1.5/s
Damage Control: -0.0333/s
MWD: OFF

Total net cap use per second: -27.5433/s

Total navy 400 cap boosters: 20 in hold, 3 in medium booster: 23
total cap-booster cap available: 23 * 400 = 9200 Gj

total time until cap booster depletion: 9200 / 27.5433 = 334 seconds = 5 minutes and 34 seconds.

So, strategy for killing a deimos with 800 plate + single MAAR or MAR is:
2 medium neuts while applying moderate EM or explosive damage. Stay alive for 5 minutes and you'll win.
With that in mind, now let's examine whether we can build a nighthawk that will tank 700dps of kin/therm for 5 minutes. I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader, since I'm not going to to all the work of telling you how to fit a ship.

hint: it's not hard...

;-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2377 - 2013-08-22 17:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
MAARs sort of don't use any (capacitor)


MAARs do use the exact same amount of cap as MARs, with or without nanopaste.


It really depends how you look at it. Yes, per cycle the MAAR and MAR use the same cap however cap efficiency per hp healed is very different. A Maar loaded with paste heals allot more hp per cap than a MAR, this is most certainly what the poster was getting at.

Either way, a Deimos can run the repper, tackle, and guns on cap recharge alone which leads to infinite tanking potential against a wide variety of similar sized targets.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2378 - 2013-08-22 17:26:58 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Either way, a Deimos can run the repper, tackle, and guns on cap recharge alone which leads to infinite tanking potential against a wide variety of similar sized targets.


Actually Jerick, although you are my dear friend, I'll have to call you on that one. It's not quite true. See the calculation 2 posts prior.

I will grant you that it can run the guns, tank and tackle for a *fair while* without a booster (provided there are no neuts on the field), but not forever.

Having done the calculation above, it becomes very obvious to me how important neut ships are going to be when fighting HACs. Fortunately, there is already a plated armageddon waiting in the SMA of my POS.

Let the games begin!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
widgetman
Widgetland
#2379 - 2013-08-22 17:33:16 UTC
The problem is, as i see it, all of the changes still take away the fact that people will compare against tech 1 Battlecrusiers........they are way cheaper do more DPS and kill HAC's very easy.......this is the problem in balancing a ship class that is way out of date.

I have no idea myself how you should balance ship classes like HAC , and also the Command ship class, they need a massive overhaul not just small tweaking, which i fear is just what is happening due to most of the GM's etc also seeing the complicated situation in front of them.

What happened as far as im concerned is the new introduction of Tech 3, and the new battlecrusiers( i say new, it was new when it happened :) ), made the HAC and Command classes just not viable in Eve ................how we change this, i just dont have a clue , i'm only expressing my opinion, but i'm sure others who have seen all the new introductions in ships will understand what i mean.

Widgetman. x
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2380 - 2013-08-22 17:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


I will grant you that it can run the guns, tank and tackle for a *fair while* without a booster (provided there are no neuts on the field), but not forever.




Looking at it right now on SiSi with a single maar and a rack of neutron blasters and the usual point/web MWD and its cap endurance is all of 50 seconds without a cap booster or cap rigs. Two minutes with an AB but there is NO WAY you are dual propping it.

With MWD its not even very fast, 2284 overloaded, the DCII + reactive hardener does look pretty nice though, but still all of 15000 eHP (eve) with dual trimarks.

Not exactly unbeatable.

and appaerntly I never remembered to go back and finish HAC 5 so this DPS/rep rates aren't what they should be