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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2321 - 2013-08-21 20:09:07 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Man, you must not have tried the Deimos on Singularity. It will not die to ANYTHING in it's weight class 1v1, including friggin faction HACs. It won't die to Command ships, laughably destroy CBC's and ABC's, will kill any BS without huge reps or Neuts, it's pretty much easymode.

I don't think you realize just how ridiculous it is. At the very least, it certainly is not in line with other HACs.... it's like what the sacrilege wishes it were.


You mean,
OMG it's a Gallente boat that does certain things better than a Cynabel or Vagabond, so it must be op.

Only Cynabels and Vagabonds get to do that, period.


First, I don't fly either of those ships.

Second, those are kiting ships, not brawling ships. Wtf are you talking about?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2322 - 2013-08-21 20:43:45 UTC
Phaade wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Man, you must not have tried the Deimos on Singularity. It will not die to ANYTHING in it's weight class 1v1, including friggin faction HACs. It won't die to Command ships, laughably destroy CBC's and ABC's, will kill any BS without huge reps or Neuts, it's pretty much easymode.

I don't think you realize just how ridiculous it is. At the very least, it certainly is not in line with other HACs.... it's like what the sacrilege wishes it were.


You mean,
OMG it's a Gallente boat that does certain things better than a Cynabel or Vagabond, so it must be op.

Only Cynabels and Vagabonds get to do that, period.


First, I don't fly either of those ships.

Second, those are kiting ships, not brawling ships. Wtf are you talking about?


I am so sorry that I don't use autocannons. But I do know that autocannons to moar damage if you get closer to your victim.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2323 - 2013-08-21 21:45:35 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Man, you must not have tried the Deimos on Singularity. It will not die to ANYTHING in it's weight class 1v1, including friggin faction HACs. It won't die to Command ships, laughably destroy CBC's and ABC's, will kill any BS without huge reps or Neuts, it's pretty much easymode.

I don't think you realize just how ridiculous it is. At the very least, it certainly is not in line with other HACs.... it's like what the sacrilege wishes it were.


You mean,
OMG it's a Gallente boat that does certain things better than a Cynabel or Vagabond, so it must be op.

Only Cynabels and Vagabonds get to do that, period.


First, I don't fly either of those ships.

Second, those are kiting ships, not brawling ships. Wtf are you talking about?


I am so sorry that I don't use autocannons. But I do know that autocannons to moar damage if you get closer to your victim.


yup they do but under neraly all condition they are now worse than blasters which shouldnt be the case...
(this is considering all the relevant fits on the relevant hulls under current game mechanics)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2324 - 2013-08-21 21:46:59 UTC
What about the condition that the ship they're on is out of cap? Are they worse then?

Just sayin'

Roll

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2325 - 2013-08-21 21:53:41 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
What about the condition that the ship they're on is out of cap? Are they worse then?

Just sayin'

Roll

just w8ted for someone to pull the capless car tbh.....


for me it doesnt make sense to have a advantage to be capless when all the hulls are adapted to support capless guns...

i have a advantage which is no advantage?
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2326 - 2013-08-21 21:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
What about the condition that the ship they're on is out of cap? Are they worse then?

Just sayin'

Roll

just w8ted for someone to pull the capless card tbh.....


for me it doesnt make sense to have a advantage to be capless when all the hulls are adapted to support capless guns...

i have a advantage which is no advantage?


sry for the qoute just wanted to erase the typo in "card"
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2327 - 2013-08-21 22:03:54 UTC
I guess you're talking about the Vaga? The fact that it has a strong capacitor allows it to zip about at 4000m/s for a very long time, with a very small sig radius. If it does get caught, it's able to keep fighting (while using the self rep bonus) to it's last breath. I think it's a very tasty little ship.

For example, put some remote logi on it and it's a very nice little bhaalgorn or armageddon killer, as well as an awesome tackler, skirmisher, escapologist.

Alll these ships have advantages that should be viewed in the context of the real game, not in hypothetical 1v1 HAC contests.

In the end, for a 1v1 everyone will bring the baddest thing they have.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2328 - 2013-08-21 22:24:06 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I guess you're talking about the Vaga? The fact that it has a strong capacitor allows it to zip about at 4000m/s for a very long time, with a very small sig radius. If it does get caught, it's able to keep fighting (while using the self rep bonus) to it's last breath. I think it's a very tasty little ship.

For example, put some remote logi on it and it's a very nice little bhaalgorn or armageddon killer, as well as an awesome tackler, skirmisher, escapologist.

Alll these ships have advantages that should be viewed in the context of the real game, not in hypothetical 1v1 HAC contests.

In the end, for a 1v1 everyone will bring the baddest thing they have.


no im not refereing to a single ship....
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2329 - 2013-08-21 23:00:37 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I guess you're talking about the Vaga? The fact that it has a strong capacitor allows it to zip about at 4000m/s for a very long time, with a very small sig radius. If it does get caught, it's able to keep fighting (while using the self rep bonus) to it's last breath. I think it's a very tasty little ship.

For example, put some remote logi on it and it's a very nice little bhaalgorn or armageddon killer, as well as an awesome tackler, skirmisher, escapologist.

Alll these ships have advantages that should be viewed in the context of the real game, not in hypothetical 1v1 HAC contests.

In the end, for a 1v1 everyone will bring the baddest thing they have.


no im not refereing to a single ship....


But you are referring to projectile weapons in the context of HACs I think. That leaves (barring lolfits) 2 hulls, the vagabond and the Muninn.

I think it's fair to say that projectile weapons make the vaga an extremely versatile HAC, as mentioned above.

The Muninn I have more difficulty with. I can't visualise a role I would put it to for the find of fleet work I do. Maybe someone else can enlighten me.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2330 - 2013-08-21 23:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Tutuola
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I guess you're talking about the Vaga? The fact that it has a strong capacitor allows it to zip about at 4000m/s for a very long time, with a very small sig radius. If it does get caught, it's able to keep fighting (while using the self rep bonus) to it's last breath. I think it's a very tasty little ship.

For example, put some remote logi on it and it's a very nice little bhaalgorn or armageddon killer, as well as an awesome tackler, skirmisher, escapologist.

Alll these ships have advantages that should be viewed in the context of the real game, not in hypothetical 1v1 HAC contests.

In the end, for a 1v1 everyone will bring the baddest thing they have.


no im not refereing to a single ship....


But you are referring to projectile weapons in the context of HACs I think. That leaves (barring lolfits) 2 hulls, the vagabond and the Muninn.

I think it's fair to say that projectile weapons make the vaga an extremely versatile HAC, as mentioned above.

The Muninn I have more difficulty with. I can't visualise a role I would put it to for the find of fleet work I do. Maybe someone else can enlighten me.


Hit and run snipers for anti-support in large fleets. With 720mms, they have good range, excellent cruiser-sized alpha strike, and quick enough align time to avoid becoming a main target. Also possible, with these same statistics, to use them as very effective anti-bombers, though honestly consider SFI superior in that role.

I'm not sure about the muninns' use in small gang/solo after the patch. It isn't changing much, so its utility is unlikely to change as well.

Black Legion swears by their muninn gangs, but only elite forces can actually make effective use of the drive-by muninn gang. Line members have to ACTUALLY align when the FC says align for these fleets to function. :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2331 - 2013-08-21 23:18:05 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Black Legion swears by their muninn gangs, but only elite forces can actually make effective use of the drive-by muninn gang. Line members have to ACTUALLY align when the FC says align for these fleets to function. :)


What? You mean there's a fleet of guys out there who actually pay attention and do what they're told?

It sounds... unbelievable...

Lol

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2332 - 2013-08-22 03:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Mournful seems obsessive about posting in this thread about how 'balanced' the Deimos is. I mean really, for someone who almost exclusively flies Gallente and Blaster boats, you have to admit, its not helping your faux-scientific arguments.

Is there a way to beat the Deimos 1v1, ofcourse. But, as others have pointed out, despite the similar conundrum vs the Dramiel of old, that didnt stop the nerf bat.

It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.

However, current Gallente Cruisers are edging out their counterparts, due to multiple factors:

- Like it or not Drones, while cumbersome to handle, are a RELATIVELY powerful weapon system. Sure you can shoot at them (but so can you recall, swap them with the large drone bays and HP bonuses). Theyre capless weapon systems that are not effected by Neuts, TDs, ECM. Droneboats have enough protection vs kiters in the shape of either a full flight of warriors or dishonor ECM drones (without hurting dps, since the large drone bays allow the spare flight to lie as insurance). You can very reliably choose between full thermal or full explosive application, which frankly covers most enemy resist profiles.

- Like it or not, Blasters post the fall off bonus, Medium variety, hit hard enough from 1km to scram edge. Gallente frig hulls are balanced out vs scram edge kiters since small blasters dont. However med blasters do just fine. You want to kite a Gallente Med Blaster user, it needs to be point range kiting and there comes the local rep to the rescue vs long range damage.

- One med neut wont do much against a decent PvP fit Gallente Cruiser, enough mids that Med blaster users know how critical a cap booster is. Even a small with navy 400s is enough. So unless facing a dedicated Neut boat, youll be just fine.

- Dont get me started on local armor reppers. In low sec and small gangs/solo, they are already very good and a further 15% boost is lul.


Ofcourse you wont agree, EvE players fighting for their 'skill queue' cause, rarely do. Youre specialized in gallente and med blasters/drones, ofcourse you will advocate for the Deimos.

One look at the relative price tells you where Gallente Cruiser hulls are compared to the rest. E.g. [Sell Prices, as on Aug 22]

Thorax vs Stabber
Vexor vs Rupture
Navy Vexor vs Stab FI
Navy Exeq vs Scy FI
Brutix vs Cyclone ..

You get the idea. Hell, look at the anticipatory pricing on
Ishtar [195m] vs Muninn [145m]
Deimos [172m] vs Vagabond [152m]

Theyre expensive for a reason. Hint, its not limited supply.

Its about balance. You seem to believe the Gallente med blaster ships 'thing' is to be able to TRIUMPH all once they get into brawl range. Period.

Pray, what is the Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar 'thing'. Lets stick with the 8 ships this thread is about for now.

So ignore the supremely scientific 1v1 and 2v2 scenarios you believe to give irrefutable evidence, just think about 'all other things being equal', are the 8 HACs reasonably balanced. (on the whole, NOT just v/s each other)

Do they all have a set of 'things' that they will be good at OR is the Deimos far and above better at this 'thing' called PvP inside scram range.

Not that their roles are set in stone, but, as a general cookie cutter approach:

How does the Eagle do at scram range (or point range w.e) PvP or the Vaga or the Sac. I fear the Eagle may be a little lacking and Deimos a little too good. Is the answer bringing the others upto the Deimos performance levels (and hence 'power creep', or to nerf the current SiSi Deimos?)

Similarly, at range, the Ishtar continues to be superb, as does the Cerb. I fear the Zealot is a little lacking, while the Muninn is frankly crap [the Med Arty buff doesnt help the ONE thing it can possibly boast about - Alpha].

TLDR: Nerf Deimos, buff Munnin, Eagle.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2333 - 2013-08-22 03:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. Quite frankly, most of the people arguing against the Deimos really seem to just be saying "OMG! I can't pad my kilboard with these ships anymore!". This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demonstrates everyday. As was already pointed out, the Deimos while excelling in 1v1, doesn't scale as well as other hulls. In gangs, it'll still earn its rightful place as the Diemost. It has a number of counters, some of which can fight it with impunity. The argument that the high speed Minnie cruisers have GTFO ability if very valid. Blaster Deimos must commit. If it's target is heavy neut equipped, bait, ECM equipped with good skills, or even equipped with a tracking disrupter, Deimos is going to be faced with a very unpleasant outlook.

The bottom line is that everyone thinks their ship is entitled to cap strengh. Kiters want indefinite AB or MWD and capless guns. Active shield tankers want enough mids and powergrid for a booster. Laser pilots want enough to NOT need a booster or beg for extra mids. I could go on. It's the everlasting gripe of all pilots regardless of race. They all want viability under neuts. It doesn't mean the current Deimos is OP. It means you have to change how you address it on the field. Play smarter.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2334 - 2013-08-22 04:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
It has to be an 'all other things being equal' argument.


No, it doesn't. In Eve, it never has been. ..... This is still a very beatable ship, as Sisi demostrates everyday. ...


Uh moot point. The last 18 months of Tiericide is a commitment that last 10 years of balance is not representative of what EvE INTENDS to be. No one cares what it 'has never been'.

Why is this a hard concept to grasp - THIS ISNT ABOUT THE DEIMOS BEING BEATABLE. Every single ship is beatable, duh.

Were talking about an entire class of ships being rebalanced and the point is simply that some HACs are currently lacklustre, while others are overtuned.

Deimos HAPPENS to be overtuned. Munnin happens to be crap. As players, it is our responsibility to remind the designers of this imbalance on the test server.

Not cry your eyes out about WAAAAT I has lost Deimos to Armageddon heavy neut, WTFXX its balance oK!!!!

This isnt a 'Can you Kill a Deimos' thread.

Youre coming across as just another Gallente pilot obsessed with wanting to cling onto an overtuned ship on SiSi. Most on the other hand are wanting a somewhat parity for the 8 HACs.

Dont worry, it wont make it to TQ. Let the tears flow.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2335 - 2013-08-22 04:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Were talking about an entire class of ships being rebalanced and the point is simply that some HACs are currently lacklustre, while others are overtuned.


One ship not being tuned enough isn't indicative of any other being OP.

Quote:
Youre just another Gallente pilot obsessed with wanting to cling onto an overtuned ship on SiSi. Most on the other hand are wanting a somewhat parity for the 8 HACs.


Ad hominem attack aside, this argument also fails. Counting over the more than a hundred pages, you'll find there's only a small number of vocal people arguing against the Deimost. Your claim of majority is unfounded.

Quote:
Dont worry, it wont make it to TQ.


We'll see.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2336 - 2013-08-22 04:59:29 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Counting over the more than a hundred pages, you'll find there's only a small number of vocal people arguing against the Deimost. Your claim of majority is unfounded.
..

We'll see.



I said majority are interested in parity for the 8 HACs, not that majority are insisting the Deimos be nerfed.

Its your continuing obsession "DO NOT NERF DEIMOS, ITS FINE, NOTHING TO SEE HERE"..
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2337 - 2013-08-22 05:09:48 UTC
Quote:
Its your continuing obsession "DO NOT NERF DEIMOS, ITS FINE, NOTHING TO SEE HERE"..


Nope. My continuing obsession is "IT CAN FINALLY DO ITS JOB! Let's have some more of that all around."
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2338 - 2013-08-22 06:35:07 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Counting over the more than a hundred pages, you'll find there's only a small number of vocal people arguing against the Deimost. Your claim of majority is unfounded.
..

We'll see.



I said majority are interested in parity for the 8 HACs, not that majority are insisting the Deimos be nerfed.

Its your continuing obsession "DO NOT NERF DEIMOS, ITS FINE, NOTHING TO SEE HERE"..


Or your obsession stating that it needs to be nerfed, without actually demonstrating the need in any way. Hint: just an NPC corp scrub saying that a ship is "overtuned" doesn't mean it is.

.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2339 - 2013-08-22 08:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Seolfor wrote:
(Nerf the Deimos so it can't solo anymore, buff muninn and egale because they aren't strong enough).


Dear Lady, no.

For once, people finally got in the Deimos a ship that delivers a top solo hull, is affordable and even though it got a strong tank (weaker than t3s though) doesn't make you lose SP on death. In like all situations, your solo ship is only as strong as you're deploying it correctly - use it to run down a tengu NP. But as Numbers rise even a little card turns pretty fastly.
Get tackled by a daredevil and have an oracle warping to within 20k, and no matter how hard you rep, it's gonna burn you down, take a more normal situation and you're suddenly facing something horrible like 2 propheces and a phobos, so say goodbye cap.

I'm in no way doubting that the Deimos is a top notch soloship, though it's advantages on that part start disappearing when facing more than a tiny group of hostiles. It's also not that deadly and tanky at the same time, while it theoretically has 580something void-dps with most configs, 580 voiddps ain't that much - and given that you're in orbit around something that isn't a battleship, void won't hit for ****.

The Deimos is completely bound to fight single or small groups of targets that have
- no ewar (really, dies to a single TD), get's obliterated by any dps and a crucifier.
- not to many webs (or they'll be able to pull you out to the egde of antimatter or even null).
- not more than ~800-1000 dps (aka a battlecruiser and a frigate), the boat is far from OP before links. It's a good active tanker, but active tanking is and will still stay irrelevant for all but solo/minifleets.
- not have neuts.

Ye, I chose TD and neuts as clearly easy-going choices against it, cause even with that capacitor - recharge from 0 is slim, once you got them down there (the 'buffer' on you HAC's cap ain't that impressive) there ain't no coming up again from a plate/AAR, dualwebscram-fit, and the dualrep-Deimos - having but some 2.5k Buffer on armor, suddenly drops like a stone if it is missing two or three repcycles. Dear, I had bugs on SiSi just rendering my cap booster inactive (didn't reload, stuck, no response from the module no matter what I clicked), dying instantly afterwards - possibly cause whoever I was fighting had a med neut Roll

But I agree, the Deimos is incrediby powerful if people don't bring anything to neutralise it's style going for those big-christmas-candle-like-glowing-weaknesses. an just remember how my testdeimos started melting once fully tackled. Links make it extremely strong (and I got the suspicion that links is the normal people are arguing about), but links also turn a dualrep Rupture into a nearly unbreakable brick.

Also, comparing a Deimos to Eagle/Muninn is like comparing a Hyperion to a Abaddon/Rokh. Do they both use turrets? - yes. Any other similiarities in deployment or playstyle? -no. (but hyperion uses the same guns as a rokh, why isn't their dps identical!!!111!!1)

Seolfor wrote:
Muninn is crap.


Sure. 100mn AB active artyfit no good at skirmishing whatsoever. Loads of artymuninns totally useless, which junkhead even flies those. right? right? PS: Muninn is that ship that uses artillery. Cause I'm not sure you know what it is. Else you wouldn't state such crap.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2340 - 2013-08-22 10:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
So those that think the deimos is balanced, please hop on Sisi so i can completely abuse you with the ship.

As has been pointed out by myself and others, the major issue with the deimos is it's cap recharge... Being able to perma tank 1 (and sometimes more) ships of similar class is not a good idea, especially when the ship doing it is faster than most hacs, more agile than most hacs, has a larger drone bay than most hacs, AND does the most dps of ALL the hacs. IF it was forced to burn more charges in some of these fights making it's staying time finite it would be FAR more balanced.

The reality is that it's simply far too good...


Also, Why does the Deimos have almost 40% more cap recharge compared to command ships which have higher cap demands and have far less ability to engage or disengage and have much larger sigs... If anything, the ships able to perma run a MAR off cap recharge should be command ships, not a hac(s).... (4.5/s for commands, 6.2/s for deimos)