These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2261 - 2013-08-20 23:29:12 UTC
Phaade wrote:

I understand what you're doing, but I don't think you need to go based on statistics that way. It would be more beneficial to look at how some of the most common / most powerful fits perform.


Numbers are dangerous things. To do this we need to define the term "perform". Is it the chance of *winning* the encounter if both ships stay, or is it one minus the chance of losing your ship?

Consider a hypothetical brawler. Let's say that in a brawl it has a 90% chance of winning (destroying the other ship) and a zero percent chance of disengaging safely.

What this means is that you will lose your ship in 1 time in every 10 fight's it's involved in, whether or not it wants to fight.

Now consider a hypothetical skirmisher. Let's say it has a 10% chance of winning (destroying the other ship) but a 90% of disengaging if it wants to.

You'll lose that ship 9 times in every 100, or 0.9 in 10 every time it fights.

So the skirmisher is actually cheaper to fight with because you'll lose it 10% less often.

This is an approximation, and the actual numbers are horribly difficult to even approximate accurately for all ships (mentioned prior). I would argue that what eve pilots find most important is *not losing the ship* rather than *winning the encounter at all costs*.

A reasonable pvp'er will seek to control his entry into an engagement and his commitment level. He is absolutely unable to do this in a brawler. Therefore for the lossmail ratio to work out 'fairly' (if that is what we want), the brawler must be much more powerful once it's committed and the skirmisher must be much more able to choose whether to take the fight.

This is pretty much the situation we have.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
DHB WildCat
Out of Fwocus
Fwodin's Call
#2262 - 2013-08-21 03:32:27 UTC
Just I thing Kil2,

Can we for the love of god stop penalizing caldari missile boats and get rid of the singular damage type bonus?

This bonus has always been stupid. All other ships get a 10% bonus to damage, while caldari missile boats get a 5% bonus to KINETIC missile. Why?

Please change this to 5% Missile damage. They still do less dps than most other ships in its class but this way selectable damage would actually be worth while.

Please start changing the missile boats to a universal damage bonus like ALL other ships in this game. Thank you

Wild
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2263 - 2013-08-21 04:34:51 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Just I thing Kil2,

Can we for the love of god stop penalizing caldari missile boats and get rid of the singular damage type bonus?

This bonus has always been stupid. All other ships get a 10% bonus to damage, while caldari missile boats get a 5% bonus to KINETIC missile. Why?

Please change this to 5% Missile damage. They still do less dps than most other ships in its class but this way selectable damage would actually be worth while.

Please start changing the missile boats to a universal damage bonus like ALL other ships in this game. Thank you

Wild

Shocked And you've been playing this game how long?

I don't think "all other ships get 10% bonus to damage." You have a fair amount of proof to present on that one. There are plenty of 5% per level to damage or 5% per level to rof bonuses out there. Some ships get two 5% bonuses. But that 5 + 5 on lasers for example is em heavy. Why should not the Caldari missile boats have a parital damage type limitation too?

"Please start changing the missile boats to a universal damage bonus like ALL other ships in this game."What? So, then, let's have lasers not only do em and therm. Oh and hybrids kinetic and therm. And as for projectiles let's expand the tech II ammo selection to also do more than explo/kin.

Anyway, they've already spoken on this. Some Caldari missile ships, when it makes sense for balancing, will get broad spectrum damage bonuses. Others will remain wedded to the kinetic racial damage preference that has been in the game historically. Just as em is for Amarr, thermal for Gallente, and explo for Minmatar. Sorry no favoritism is presently occurring and what you suggest would result in favoritism.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2264 - 2013-08-21 07:02:11 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
...Incidentally, 2 ravens killed my deimos easily, as did an ishtar + a tornado.

Good. I am glad that all I have to do when approached by a Deimos is to pick up the phone and bring in some friends .. not over the top, no siree! Blink

It has the mids to inject and the lows to tank, swap its capacitor with the Zealot (ie. Deimos and Ishtar to have similar capacitors) .. there needs to be sacrifices and forcing the injector choice only when 2+ heavy neuts or multiple similar or heavier enemies are expected is nowhere near enough, not with four mids on an armour hull.

Let Amarr be Amarr for once in the tiericide show, let them be the cap race for Goddess sake ..
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2265 - 2013-08-21 07:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ArcticPrism
Deacon Abox wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Just I thing Kil2,

Can we for the love of god stop penalizing caldari missile boats and get rid of the singular damage type bonus?

This bonus has always been stupid. All other ships get a 10% bonus to damage, while caldari missile boats get a 5% bonus to KINETIC missile. Why?

Please change this to 5% Missile damage. They still do less dps than most other ships in its class but this way selectable damage would actually be worth while.

Please start changing the missile boats to a universal damage bonus like ALL other ships in this game. Thank you

Wild

Shocked And you've been playing this game how long?

I don't think "all other ships get 10% bonus to damage." You have a fair amount of proof to present on that one. There are plenty of 5% per level to damage or 5% per level to rof bonuses out there. Some ships get two 5% bonuses. But that 5 + 5 on lasers for example is em heavy. Why should not the Caldari missile boats have a parital damage type limitation too?

"Please start changing the missile boats to a universal damage bonus like ALL other ships in this game."What? So, then, let's have lasers not only do em and therm. Oh and hybrids kinetic and therm. And as for projectiles let's expand the tech II ammo selection to also do more than explo/kin.

Anyway, they've already spoken on this. Some Caldari missile ships, when it makes sense for balancing, will get broad spectrum damage bonuses. Others will remain wedded to the kinetic racial damage preference that has been in the game historically. Just as em is for Amarr, thermal for Gallente, and explo for Minmatar. Sorry no favoritism is presently occurring and what you suggest would result in favoritism.


Also 20-25% of any Minmatar ammo type is not the desired damage type(EMP is partially kin/exp) And yeah, only missiles still allow you to select damage type with t2 missiles. Amarr locked to EM/Therm with everything. Kin/Therm for Galente and Exp/Kin for Minmatar.
Vaal Hadren
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2266 - 2013-08-21 07:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaal Hadren
Um, I'm a bit late to the game on this one, but why no love for the Zealot (like, at all)?

Sure it's decent fleet AHAC but the new Nomen literally trumps it in all but DPS (by a mere 100 - and tbf, the HAC-wide role bonus).

A plated Nomen goes faster and aligns better than a nano'd Zealot. Despite resists, similarly fit they're about the same EHP.

Compared to say the changes to the Cerberus (which are obscene - in a good way, 25% speed, extra launcher, a drone bay, etc etc) isn't Zealot deserving of something to truly separate it from the other Omen variants? Especially as it's little more than a flying gun (no utility slots, limited mids, no drones, cap issues) with a plethora of hard counters.

How about 7.5% tracking per level?

Or MWD cap reduction per level (to truly own the new role bonus)?

Or more cap, or something, like. . . anything. . .

>.>

I'm sorry I've haven't read through all the pages here so if there's a chorus already saying this I appologise, if there's not a chorus though, then please community wake up. Zealot is entering RIP territory outside of limited niches if this goes live.

That said, the changes to the other HAC's here all look great and very welcome.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2267 - 2013-08-21 08:33:41 UTC
Vaal Hadren wrote:
Um, I'm a bit late to the game on this one, but why no love for the Zealot (like, at all)?

Sure it's decent fleet AHAC but the new Nomen literally trumps it in all but DPS (by a mere 100 - and tbf, the HAC-wide role bonus).

A plated Nomen goes faster and aligns better than a nano'd Zealot. Despite resists, similarly fit they're about the same EHP.

Compared to say the changes to the Cerberus (which are obscene - in a good way, 25% speed, extra launcher, a drone bay, etc etc) isn't Zealot deserving of something to truly separate it from the other Omen variants? Especially as it's little more than a flying gun (no utility slots, limited mids, no drones, cap issues) with a plethora of hard counters.

How about 7.5% tracking per level?

Or MWD cap reduction per level (to truly own the new role bonus)?

Or more cap, or something, like. . . anything. . .

>.>

I'm sorry I've haven't read through all the pages here so if there's a chorus already saying this I appologise, if there's not a chorus though, then please community wake up. Zealot is entering RIP territory outside of limited niches if this goes live.

That said, the changes to the other HAC's here all look great and very welcome.


I'm just quoting in case of someone beats me to it.

All HACs on SiSi that I have flown, which includes the Zealot, will be able to leave an mwd on from the point you undock until the next downtime, you jump through a gate or get yourself blown up in her.

So I will assume that all of them can do it.

I suggest you enter SiSi and fly one of them and check them out.


Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2268 - 2013-08-21 09:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
elitatwo wrote:
So I will assume that all of them can do it...

And Benny Hill'ing all over creation accomplishes what exactly?

Zealot can MWD all it likes, activate a single T2 point and you are almost exactly at peak recharge.

Would you like to try to fire your guns?

HPLII (the norm for Zealots) draws almost 40% more cap than a Heavy Neutron II (not the norm) with a 25% faster RoF, you need to downgrade to Focused Pulse to equate the cap performance of Neutrons.

From SiSi:
Delta cap for HPLII with MWD and T2 point on is: -8.3 GJ/s
Delta cap for Neutron w. MWD and T2 point on is: -0.5 GJ/s

Just fo fun:
Delta cap for 250mm rails (Scouts, haven't got T2 spec Shocked) w. MWD and T2 point on is: -2.3 GJ/s
Delta cap for Hvy.Mod Beams (best named out of fairness) w. MWD and T2 point on is: -9.5 GJ/s

Now factor in the 4th midslot (Inject!) that separate the Deimos/Zealot, the mobility difference, the drone difference, the range/tracking difference and the tanking difference.

The lack of cap forces the Zealot to buffer tank and even then it has to sacrifice a precious midslot for an injector if it wants to move at any time while shooting .. which is quite frequent due to ****-poor tracking and optimal manipulation.
Deimos has to make comparatively no sacrifices at all, it does not need an injector except against neuts or the odd dual-tank. It will kite, brawl, bait and Benny Hill so much better than all the others that it should be classified as a HAC Mk.2.

Switching cap on Deimos and Zealot alleviates the issues with Zealot but does not remove them and opens up for active tanking (with injector) by essentially "splitting the difference" caused by insane laser cap use.
Deimos will have to use injector in a few more instances but will otherwise not experience any adverse effects as the value/power of that 4th midslot creates an entirely different beast .. one thing I might suggest in conjunction is to lower the Deimos signature by 10-15m as it is abnormally high for a supposed brawler.
Vaal Hadren
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2269 - 2013-08-21 10:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaal Hadren
Quote:
All HACs on SiSi that I have flown, which includes the Zealot, will be able to leave an mwd on from the point you undock until the next downtime, you jump through a gate or get yourself blown up in her.


Well, that's wonderful, but I was kinda hoping for a variant that could also fire its lasers, you know, simultaneously. . .

You do realise that the Zealot in my hangar is no different to the Zealot on SiSi except that on SiSi it has the HAC-Wide MWD signature radius bonus and an increased Sensor Strength, right?

Zealot alone among the HACs has recieved zero buffs. Sorry to say, but it's not that good (especially next to the dreamy new Nomen and the other 'new' HACs) and will continue to only shine (if that's even the proper term now) in a Sig tanking >AB< fit AHAC Logi Gang (thus completely ignoring the new "Role Bonus.")

This was kinda my point.


Thank you, Veshta Yoshida for grasping well the actual issue here.

I think Zealot should go from:

ZEALOT

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

To:

ZEALOT

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage (You know, like a T1 Omen. . . and addressing somewhat the Cap issue as RoF DPS has been rolled into this instead)

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret tracking (as befits a dedicated one-trick TII turret platform distinguishing itself from its racial brethren and taking it modestly away from the precipice of obsolescence where it currently abides. . . )

If I were to leave the Cap/Grid/CPU/etc alone that is. . . I'm being pretty modest here. . .
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2270 - 2013-08-21 10:22:27 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Boris Amarr wrote:
Navy Omen VS Zealot
http://s24.postimg.org/f9tuk94ut/Navy_Omen_vs_Zealot.png

Navy Omen vs Zealot
Speed ........................ 1962 vs 1462
Align ............................ 7.2 vs 10.6
Damge (with drones). ... 409 vs 406
Optimal (Scorch) ........... 34 vs 34
Dronebay ....................... 40 vs 0
Capacitor ................... 1671 vs 1519
Cap peak recharge ....... 19.8 vs 17.1
Lock Range ................ 71.9 vs 68.8
Maximum Target ............. 7 vs 6
Scann Resolution ....... 400 vs 382
Sensor Strength ........... 20 vs 15
Signature ................... 600 vs 750
Armor ....................... 9703 vs 8813

Why is Zealot worse that Navy Omen by all this attributes?

Zealot has resistances (and total EHP) better than Navy Omen only.

I think Zealot must have dronebay at least for 5 light drones and much more speed!!!


Take a look at ehp and resitance profile (epecially with legion links) and youll see.




Ur fitting is sooo pro man.... , your using data that is incorrect, after the 1.1 patch the zealot will beat the navy omen... not by alot but by a small margin in some aspects and larger in others. i.e Sig and EHP. Oh and since the ship is 140m to buy then why are you fitting it for cost effectiveness??
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2271 - 2013-08-21 10:37:52 UTC
This is the problem with HAC's atm is that the 50% mwd has been slapped on to the ships but since they weren't designed with it in mind not many of these HAC's actually will benefit from utilising it ..

Which kind of sums up HAC's for you is that they don't want to change them too much as they don't want too annoy people who use them as they are well AHAC gangs but that completely ignores the role bonus .. its such a flawed design .

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2272 - 2013-08-21 10:42:01 UTC
Deimos is hilariously OP. I fit one up on SiSi with my only tank mods being 2x MAR, EANM, DCU, exp hard, and 1 auxil nano pump. That is a 6 slot tank, or a triple rep myrmidon's low slots without rigs. I didn't not use links, had a pure t2 fit, and standard exile.

My first fight was against 2x XLASB vigilants with HG crystals (they were repping over 70% shields per cycle) and a nomen. I tanked both vigilants with occasional heat but I was never really in danger. I managed to take one vigilant down with me before popping taking 30k damage. Seems balanced...

The second fight I fought a dual medium neut astarte and an AC nado. Since the deimos reps like 50% of its armor with one cycle even under neuting pressure you can just active cap booster and reps at the same time and be close to full again. Since now the astarte is a better deimos of course I went down eventually, but not before taking 50k damage.

Next, I turned on astarte links and then things just got silly like tanking BS with 1 rep or whole cruiser gangs easily. I'm not sure how to fix it, but it definitely needs to be toned down somehow.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2273 - 2013-08-21 10:44:11 UTC
So you lost both fights, and still think it's OP?

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2274 - 2013-08-21 11:01:20 UTC
Roime wrote:
So you lost both fights, and still think it's OP?


Agree. It will certainly be a popular HAC for have-a-go heros. But Eve TQ is going to be littered with deimos wrecks.

I've mentioned before that a dedicated brawler HAS to be OP at brawling because it sucks at everything else and can't ever get away unless it wins. Anything faster, even 1m/s faster, can eventually disengage and dictate the terms of the encounter.

There was no reason at all for God's Apples' opponents to lose *any* vigilants against a deimos - they should have used their bonused webs on him and kited away. If your opponents don't use their ships abilities to full effect I think they can fairly be expected to fly home in a pod.

Deimos in a 1v1 is definitely the most powerful unless the opponent:
pulls range (blaster effective range is 5km)
has strong kin/therm resists (blasters have a well known damage profile)
has neuts (2 med neuts and it's eventually game over for a deimos)

People will learn this very quickly and anyone looking for a 1v1 in a deimos will either find himself kited by something faster or ignored. He will not get many kills at all, in the same way a myrmidon doesn't.

The deimos' role (as I see it) is to tag and hold onto hard-hitting ships, surviving long enough until help arrives. It's about time we had an armour ship that can do this.

It's not as if the game does not have other ships that are *more* powerful at self tanking:
cyclone
tengu
hawk
hyperion

and so on...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#2275 - 2013-08-21 11:01:37 UTC
Actually an OP diemost is a good change... Let the poor ship have its moment in the sun.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2276 - 2013-08-21 11:05:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
So you lost both fights, and still think it's OP?


I won plenty of fights with it. I feel the fights I lost showcase more how it's OP since I tanked over 1000 dps for a very extended period of time fully t2 fit with no implants and links. You have to also keep in mind that the majority of people on the test server are using HG implants and some of them links.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2277 - 2013-08-21 11:14:00 UTC
I still don't get why "tanking over 1000 dps for a while and then dying" is OP? Obviously those engagement were more than the ship could handle, which sounds pretty balanced tbh.

.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2278 - 2013-08-21 11:18:45 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Deimos is hilariously OP. I fit one up on SiSi with my only tank mods being 2x MAR, EANM, DCU, exp hard, and 1 auxil nano pump. That is a 6 slot tank, or a triple rep myrmidon's low slots without rigs. I didn't not use links, had a pure t2 fit, and standard exile.

My first fight was against 2x XLASB vigilants with HG crystals (they were repping over 70% shields per cycle) and a nomen. I tanked both vigilants with occasional heat but I was never really in danger. I managed to take one vigilant down with me before popping taking 30k damage. Seems balanced...

The second fight I fought a dual medium neut astarte and an AC nado. Since the deimos reps like 50% of its armor with one cycle even under neuting pressure you can just active cap booster and reps at the same time and be close to full again. Since now the astarte is a better deimos of course I went down eventually, but not before taking 50k damage.

Next, I turned on astarte links and then things just got silly like tanking BS with 1 rep or whole cruiser gangs easily. I'm not sure how to fix it, but it definitely needs to be toned down somehow.


So you found out that gallente t2 resists on a local-rep bonused hull together with the recent local-armor buff works quite good to tank two blasterboats and a Nomen using only a standard exile, and no links (whose enhancements have been partially built into the module itself) Roll

What's next? Lokis can tank three absolutions all day, it's just nothing special. Surely doesn't mean it's OP.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2279 - 2013-08-21 11:25:05 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Roime wrote:
So you lost both fights, and still think it's OP?


Agree. It will certainly be a popular HAC for have-a-go heros. But Eve TQ is going to be littered with deimos wrecks.

I've mentioned before that a dedicated brawler HAS to be OP at brawling because it sucks at everything else and can't ever get away unless it wins. Anything faster, even 1m/s faster, can eventually disengage and dictate the terms of the encounter.

There was no reason at all for God's Apples' opponents to lose *any* vigilants against a deimos - they should have used their bonused webs on him and kited away. If your opponents don't use their ships abilities to full effect I think they can fairly be expected to fly home in a pod.

Deimos in a 1v1 is definitely the most powerful unless the opponent:
pulls range (blaster effective range is 5km)
has strong kin/therm resists (blasters have a well known damage profile)
has neuts (2 med neuts and it's eventually game over for a deimos)

People will learn this very quickly and anyone looking for a 1v1 in a deimos will either find himself kited by something faster or ignored. He will not get many kills at all, in the same way a myrmidon doesn't.

The deimos' role (as I see it) is to tag and hold onto hard-hitting ships, surviving long enough until help arrives. It's about time we had an armour ship that can do this.

It's not as if the game does not have other ships that are *more* powerful at self tanking:
cyclone
tengu
hawk
hyperion

and so on...


Deimos has a falloff bonus so it can hit anywhere in scram range for over 50% dps with antimatter.
Deimos also has strong kin/therm resists. I suppose there are a couple of ships with strong kin/therm resists, but kin/therm is the best type to shoot at t1 hulls usually as well as being good against t2 minmatar and amarr.
Neuts counter any active tanked ship, but the deimos is all about rep per cycle so even 1 cap inject and 1 OH'd rep cycle sets your opponent back very far.

As to your second point of ships self tanking well:

Cyclone has **** poor dps if you make it tank the same sustained dps as a deimos and even worse application.
A tengu costs 3 times as much and is rarely effective when t2 fit.
Hawk is in the same boat as the deimos but it can't tank cruisers too well and is slow whereas an active cruiser's bane should be t3 BCs yet the deimos outpaces them easily and can permatank them even at 0 transversal.
Hyperion is a rep bonused battleship that not too many ships would willingly engage solo, but has relatively poor mobility whereas the deimos can not only tank every ship in its class but can also catch them.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2280 - 2013-08-21 11:27:21 UTC
... and that most of them don't have a clue how to fit or use a ship, or are in ships they don't really have the skills for...

Example: SR Deimos with 800 plate vs a vindicator (an extreme example to illustrate a point):

vindicator has 1 web and the pilot has minmatar battleship I: vindicator will die since the Deimos will orbit at 500m and never get hit.

now give the vindi pilot 4 days to train to minmatar BS IV, and show him how to fit 2 webs...
That Deimos is going nowhere and will be shredded in moments as it gets the full attention of the vindicator's very overheated, very angry neutron blaster cannons.

eve is not just about the ship bonuses, it's absolutely about knowing how to use them, and when.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".