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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2241 - 2013-08-20 09:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Roime wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

oh i meant sac as it is now on TQ.
post patch sac will be way better than it is now and tons better than the deimos since it's actually useful in fleets.


You mean because it applies less than half of the damage of a rail Deimos, while being slower and less agile? Sure, it has 7-8K more EHP, but that doesn't really matter when dps is only 200 vs 500 of the rail Deimos. (Target: MWDing Deimos that can kite the Sac forever)

Comparing blaster Deimos to HAM Sac looks just way worse for the Sac, applied damage difference is 3/4-fold.

Against different targets results will vary, but it does look like a Deimos fleet will blatantly stomp a Sac fleet in both close and long range fits. The much debated MWD role bonus really hurts missiles in this context.









This is simply not true. A viable blaster deimos tops out at 700dps of only kinetic and thermal damage (i.e. known and counterable). It deals that damage out to about 4km. The HAM sac deals 500 or so damage of any damage type. The HAM sac can deal this damage at 8.9km - on the edge of scram range and at a range where the deimos is dealing no more than half it's ideal damage.

Put a dual prop on the sac and watch it pop a deimos.

It's not designed to brawl in optimal blaster range, that's what the deimos is for.

You have to fly these ships...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2242 - 2013-08-20 09:57:32 UTC
HAM Sac with faction HAMS and two BCUs does 495 (heated) on paper yes, of which only 250 [i]in the best case[i/] are applied to a MWDing HAC.

A dual prop Deimos can unfortunately dictate the range against a Sac, being the faster ship of the two. Once you factor in the Reactive Armor Hardener, which you can fit on Deimos with two damage mods unlike the Sac, the Deimos has even more EHP against it's weakest resist than Sac has against kin/therm. Not even mentioning an active fit :D



.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2243 - 2013-08-20 10:10:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
HAM Sac with faction HAMS and two BCUs does 495 (heated) on paper yes, of which only 250 [i]in the best case[i/] are applied to a MWDing HAC.

A dual prop Deimos can unfortunately dictate the range against a Sac, being the faster ship of the two. Once you factor in the Reactive Armor Hardener, which you can fit on Deimos with two damage mods unlike the Sac, the Deimos has even more EHP against it's weakest resist than Sac has against kin/therm. Not even mentioning an active fit :D





We are beginning to get into an escalation of counter and counter-counter here.

If you dual-prop a deimos you have 2 options:- no cap booster (suicide) or no web.

If you drop the web, the sac can still dictate range because it has 5 mid slots: MDW, AB, WEB, SCRAM, cap booster.

The deimos is now travelling at 150 m/s (AB - web) while the sac is travelling at double that.

Those HAMs are now hitting at almost full damage. The blasters are barely hitting again (range, transversal). The SAC can disengage any time it wants (align, overheat scram and web, switch from AB to overheated MWD, warp). The deimos is there for the duration whether it likes it or not.

The advantage remains with the SAC.

If you drop the cap booster in the deimos, well, your're gambling that no-one you encounter will have a neut. That's not something you do more than once. Not if you're there to brawl.

The deimos is a great bulldog, but without a master to support it, it will die.

I think both these ships are great. I will be using them both.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2244 - 2013-08-20 10:12:53 UTC
Sac has four mids.

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2245 - 2013-08-20 10:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
forgive me, which ship am I mixing it up with? I'm on a laptop here and unable to run sisi to check again.

edit: try sacrilege with NOS instead of cap booster. It's the one with a +25 cap recharge right?

apologies for this error. I'm getting old :-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2246 - 2013-08-20 10:30:43 UTC
No worries, obviously nothing is so black and white and engagements on TQ are a far cry from EFT warrioring. My point was mostly that new Deimos looks very good and is certainly not unusable compared to the Sac, which itself looks great as well.

I honestly don't get the whining in this thread, all the new HACs are sweet and only time will truly tell how they fit into doctrines and the meta. I just know that I'll be flying the Deimos like there's no tomorrow, both solo and in gangs 8-)

.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2247 - 2013-08-20 10:34:21 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
forgive me, which ship am I mixing it up with? I'm on a laptop here and unable to run sisi to check again...

Heh.

What it comes down to is that to get that ~500 paper damage the Sacrilege have to try to survive with a three slot tank and the range bonus is not actually doing it any favours as the main issue with HAMs is and always has been application .. basically, if it kites (using the range) it won't be able to kill much of anything and if it brawls it (full tackle) it dies from lack of tank .. that is assuming one can even make the damn thing 'kite' with the mobility profile it has (only the Eagle is worse off).

If you DP you increase the tank against non-webbing opponents but restrict yourself to single rep as you can't inject .. unless you forego your own web making damage application problematic. It is actually very nicely balanced with sacrifices and trade-offs everywhere, problem is that none/few of the other HACs are made from the same forced-decision mold putting the venerable Sacrilege at a severe disadvantage.

Explosion Velocity bonus would be infinitely better for both the HML and HAM Sacrilege ... then again perhaps the Dev thinking leans towards ASB kiting .. hahahaha.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2248 - 2013-08-20 10:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Roime wrote:
No worries, obviously nothing is so black and white and engagements on TQ are a far cry from EFT warrioring. My point was mostly that new Deimos looks very good and is certainly not unusable compared to the Sac, which itself looks great as well.

I honestly don't get the whining in this thread, all the new HACs are sweet and only time will truly tell how they fit into doctrines and the meta. I just know that I'll be flying the Deimos like there's no tomorrow, both solo and in gangs 8-)


Yeah, I'm down with that.

There's going to be a *lot* of T2 salvage lying around after 1.1 as HAC squads meet HAC squads. It's going to be messy.

Hoo-Rah!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2249 - 2013-08-20 10:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
but guys... capstable med-neut on a bufferfit sacriledge together with a 15+km damage comfy zone... :D AND EC-600s FINALLY!!!!!11!1

Could even neglect some dps, go dualmed and just **** capitals à la welpcane!


Edit: Calling me a wanker for enjoying the thought of med. jam drones on that ship could be considered reasonable.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#2250 - 2013-08-20 12:30:37 UTC
This has me wondering how this chart is going to work:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

The pirate ships are supposed to be an "improvement" over the T2 ships, whatever that means. I don't know how you can make a ship less specialized and an "improvement" at the same time though. Specialization is king in EVE. I currently fly a Gila for exploration and love it. I like that it has an extra midslot and an extra 25 m3 of drone bay compared to the Ishtar. I never bother to put missiles on it though, its a drone ship. You play to your ship's strengths in this game. CPU can not be wasted on piddly un-bonused missile DPS. I'll probably switch to the Ishtar after the patch for its sentry bonus. As far as drone ships go, it will be better. Its hard to imagine how the Gila can be buffed to stay viable while not overshadowing the Ishtar again. I guess they could copy over the bonuses from the Ishtar and remove the missiles. So it would essentially be a choice between an armor tanking ship with T2 resists or a shield tanking ship with more buffer. Not terribly interesting I guess. It will be tough.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2251 - 2013-08-20 13:09:49 UTC
Idk, pirate ships are an upgrade from navy ships, which are upgrades from T1. T2 is just specialized- I'm betting Gila gets strong bonuses to mobile drones, and Isthar remains the sentry king.

Once again, there's the urgent need to fix drones, CCP is intent on turning drone ships into pure drone ships, which is simply subpar strategy in PVP until the drone UI and basic mechanics are fixed.

.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2252 - 2013-08-20 13:37:40 UTC
Roime wrote:
Idk, pirate ships are an upgrade from navy ships, which are upgrades from T1. T2 is just specialized- I'm betting Gila gets strong bonuses to mobile drones, and Isthar remains the sentry king.

Once again, there's the urgent need to fix drones, CCP is intent on turning drone ships into pure drone ships, which is simply subpar strategy in PVP until the drone UI and basic mechanics are fixed.




Got a Gila BPC a month or two ago, build the thing and fitted then waww....

Capacitor is worst than Gallente hulls, missiles dps I can barely explain or find a word justifying those high's but "total crap", fit an ASB requires far too much CPU meaning 1rig1slot is taken just to fit that asb leaving you with either 2 DDAs and a DCU or 3DDAs and no DCU, drones dps on paper is not bad but no real advantage over missiles or guns.

Maybe because i don't like drone boats, and believe me I've tried to love them but I can't, Gila for a pirate ship imho is a horrible slow ass and ugly on top.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2253 - 2013-08-20 15:28:42 UTC
Roime wrote:
Idk, pirate ships are an upgrade from navy ships, which are upgrades from T1. T2 is just specialized- I'm betting Gila gets strong bonuses to mobile drones, and Isthar remains the sentry king.

Once again, there's the urgent need to fix drones, CCP is intent on turning drone ships into pure drone ships, which is simply subpar strategy in PVP until the drone UI and basic mechanics are fixed.

Let's not forget drone hp. The damn things die too easily. You lose some even while recalling them and redeploying. And that tactic kills your dps anyway, even if you manage to keep the drones from dying. Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2254 - 2013-08-20 16:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.



It may have a neut weakness, however it can tank anything that would to kite it. A zealot / sac / vaga cannot deal enough dps to break it's tank. Perhaps 2, and with boosters (god forbid links) it will easily tank them as well.

I can't see hit having a hard time with BC's, too fast / small sig / rep amount / DPS.

All that being said, how do you feel it matches up with other HACs? I still find the sacrilege lacking, but overall I like the new balance. RLM nano Cerberus is pretty wicked, just not against anything with reps Cool
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2255 - 2013-08-20 18:00:02 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.



It may have a neut weakness, however it can tank anything that would to kite it. A zealot / sac / vaga cannot deal enough dps to break it's tank. Perhaps 2, and with boosters (god forbid links) it will easily tank them as well.

I can't see hit having a hard time with BC's, too fast / small sig / rep amount / DPS.

All that being said, how do you feel it matches up with other HACs? I still find the sacrilege lacking, but overall I like the new balance. RLM nano Cerberus is pretty wicked, just not against anything with reps Cool


Well look, obviously for close in brawling the Deimos will normally be the hac of choice, but read on...

My background is in using compute grids to calculate the fair price of exotic financial products. We call these multivariate problems because there are lots of variables (sorry if I'm insulting anyone's intelligence).

these problems often take many hours to run over many thousands of processors, and the number of variables is, wait for it, minuscule compared to the problem of computing the chance of each fitting of each ship to beat every other ship.

Seriously, even culling the daft fits, I do not believe it would be possible to compute a ranking of each hac by fit, initial engagement range and numbers in fleet. It's simply a gargantuan problem. Building a chess playing mainframe us a walk in the park by comparison. So the truth is, I have no idea.
we'll just have to fight and find out. the answer will be in the number of wrecks produced.

/r

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
dR PaNouKLa
Perkone
Caldari State
#2256 - 2013-08-20 18:49:40 UTC
vaga is slightly slower than before
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2257 - 2013-08-20 20:03:59 UTC
I am just going to quickly come back to role here.

It seems both faction Crusiers and Hacs share the exact same role.

both have more ehp both have more base damage. they are pretty much upgrades of the tech I version.

TBH the only ships that are somewhat unique are the ones that do not have a faction crusier variant like the thorax.

Personally I think CCP is a little chicken to do a real role for hacs and there is a heavy heavy nostalgia about thier use.

and at the time of inception hacs where is the role they were meant to be just upgrades over the tech I version.

but now it seems tech II is supposed to be special. be it infinte point on a hic or long point on an inty or special e-war for recon ships. command ships have warefare links. heck even BLOPS have a special role.

but hacs? nah they are just upgraded tech I ships. not saying i dont like them infact i am rather happy where they landed... i just dont think they are tech II... if the definition of Tech II is specialized.

a special role should be something that no other class can do. like covert jump bridges or infinate points.

dont get me wrong a -50% mwd works great on frigs because you have medium then large then capital. but this does not scale that well for hacs as there is only large then capital and since the mwd sig bloom will bring the ship up to 750 sig radius large weapons will be doing max damage.

so really CCP can hacs please have a role bonus?

TBH there are plenty of good ideas... we just need CCP to be fearless and do it.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2258 - 2013-08-20 20:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.



It may have a neut weakness, however it can tank anything that would to kite it. A zealot / sac / vaga cannot deal enough dps to break it's tank. Perhaps 2, and with boosters (god forbid links) it will easily tank them as well.

I can't see hit having a hard time with BC's, too fast / small sig / rep amount / DPS.

All that being said, how do you feel it matches up with other HACs? I still find the sacrilege lacking, but overall I like the new balance. RLM nano Cerberus is pretty wicked, just not against anything with reps Cool


Well look, obviously for close in brawling the Deimos will normally be the hac of choice, but read on...

My background is in using compute grids to calculate the fair price of exotic financial products. We call these multivariate problems because there are lots of variables (sorry if I'm insulting anyone's intelligence).

these problems often take many hours to run over many thousands of processors, and the number of variables is, wait for it, minuscule compared to the problem of computing the chance of each fitting of each ship to beat every other ship.

Seriously, even culling the daft fits, I do not believe it would be possible to compute a ranking of each hac by fit, initial engagement range and numbers in fleet. It's simply a gargantuan problem. Building a chess playing mainframe us a walk in the park by comparison. So the truth is, I have no idea.
we'll just have to fight and find out. the answer will be in the number of wrecks produced.

/r


I understand what you're doing, but I don't think you need to go based on statistics that way. It would be more beneficial to look at how some of the most common / most powerful fits perform. Currently, IMO, the Deimos is too powerful with a few fits. It's nearly unkillable 1v1, and based off what I saw, 2v1. If you can kite it, you can't break it's tank. If you brawl with it, you still can't break it's tank. Perhaps with med or higher Neuts you can eventually break it's tank, but without Neuts, you're getting nowhere.

I had dual NOS on it (granted NOS are still, well, garbage) in a 150k EHP HAM damnation and had no chance. He just slooowwly killed me. My assessment it not solely based off of this engagement; there were many others.

It may be balanced in larger engagements, but I strongly believe the Deimos is too powerful in small scale pvp.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2259 - 2013-08-20 22:18:34 UTC
Phaade wrote:


- snip -

It may be balanced in larger engagements, but I strongly believe the Deimos is too powerful in small scale pvp.


Until you jump into a small gang of three Tornados 50km of that gate that ruin your day

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2260 - 2013-08-20 22:41:11 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:


- snip -

It may be balanced in larger engagements, but I strongly believe the Deimos is too powerful in small scale pvp.


Until you jump into a small gang of three Tornados 50km of that gate that ruin your day


Agreed.

There is a problem here. You can't build a self rep ship that's fair in 1v1 that stands a chance unaided in a skirmish.

So 1v1 the self rep brawlers have to be overpowered in order to stand any chance at all in 2v2.

That's just the way it is. I can't see how the mathematics would work any other way. There are other ships that are like this of course:
cyclone
tengu
hyperion
etc.

Incidentally, 2 ravens killed my deimos easily, as did an ishtar + a tornado.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".