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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#481 - 2013-08-17 06:39:24 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Is there any chance that the progression from gist large to gist x-large will be investigated?
At the moment, the gist c-type X-large is continuing the increase from cap efficiency compared to large, instead of being aligned with the meta level.

so gist large c < b < a < x < XL c < XL b etc.

instead of something more like

large c < XL c < L b < XL b etc.

Right now, the worst XL is just better comared to the best L. (in brackets: death to X-L dominance, needs nerfbat)


No, xlasb are bs modules, l are cruiser sized ones. A medium armor repper should in no way beat a large one (and it doesnt), same with the shield versions.

Btw, @ ccp, please fix deadspace armour repair systems, at least give centus and corpus a diiference, they both have exactly the same stats. And core is unbalanced.

For deadspace shield you imo have a very good balance, gist is way easier on cap and it has way better sustained reps, pith provides more burst tank but is way worse on cap and sustained tank. Both are viable, both have their uses.

For core compared to centus/corpus you have the same sustained reps but without a higher burst rep rate, which imo is bad design (the same problem you also have with faction shield boosters). Give the 3 of them a better balance.


What also is annoying is that some officer boosters have the exact same stats as deadspace ones, this is just plain lazy and shouldnt be happening. Give them some difference.



To the discussion of should pve be relevant in balancing issues.

Imo, no , pve balance doesnt really matter, there is no meta game, the ship wich can it do the fastes/with the least skills/with the least effort will be taken, if a specific frig is 5 times better then another one at lvl1 missions it doesnt do any harm nor does it break a game.

And 90%+ of the ships in game have no relevance in pve, frig/dessie/ t1cruisers pve balance is important for maybe 2 weeks or less of a pve chars playing time, and its a stepping stone, and even if one ship there is 15% better then another one it wont really matter. All the while these ships are of big revelance in pew pew.

So imo, as lomg as every race has access (and i include priate bs in that, training bs IV of another race takes a very short time) to one pve ship that is comptetive, pve balance is fine, pvp balance means that no race is really unable to spent time reaching that one ship and after that its endless grinding anyways (i also think quite a few of the highsec pve chars are alts of some sort, highsec numbers are grossly infalted anways, everyone has at least 1 jita alt on the main ac)
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#482 - 2013-08-17 12:03:40 UTC
PVE balance is a joke and should be ignored to a high extent. Practically, the ship with best projected dps for the job is the best PVE ship with logistics and webs as the only notable exceptions.

In fact, I think CCP should make a ratting line of ships equivalent to ore mining ships and be done with pve balancing.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#483 - 2013-08-20 04:43:51 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Last year in the armor tanking 1.5 thread I already said that medium and large armor reps need a reduction in cycle time and a reduction in capacitor use.

The reason why the medium tech2 armor rep + an 800mm plate works well in some cases is that you need the extra armor layer for the rep cycle to hit.

In case of the medium tech2 rep, a lot can happen in 7.7 seconds and 160gj on a 1600gj capacitor is very taxing.

If some people took thier time to read and comprehend, what I was proposing, they would realize that it wasn't unreasonable.

For the lazy one, here are some numbers to stare at:

zee current tech2 medium armor rep haz
15 seconds cycle time
needs 160gj capacitorz

wiz ma proposal iz wood be,
10 seconds cycle time
needs 80gj capacitorz

or in other wordz -33% cycle time and -50% capacitor usage for zee tech2 medium armor rep.

I waz noze talking about §$%//%$" deadspace or §%&$" officer reps.


If you want to be taken seriously do not ever post like this. Well formed ideas will be over looked because people will look at the first word "zee" and stop because they think you are dumb. You posted well the first few lines then went to utter gibberish. Please don't bring our forums down with this type of speech anymore. That is reserved for Dust or other FPS games.

Fred
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2013-08-20 10:25:52 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
That is reserved for Dust or other FPS games.


almost fell off my chair laughing...

You have to admit though that the fella's maths are right. -50% cap use for an armour repairer is dangerous.

A T2 fitted hyperion with gang links has (when all cap is coverted to repair cycles) about 360,000 ehp.

If you half the cap use, you increase that number to the order of 700,000 - actually a little more because now cap recharge becomes a factor.

I think we'd all have to agree that that's a little overwhelming.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#485 - 2013-08-20 11:54:54 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Is there any chance that the progression from gist large to gist x-large will be investigated?
At the moment, the gist c-type X-large is continuing the increase from cap efficiency compared to large, instead of being aligned with the meta level.

so gist large c < b < a < x < XL c < XL b etc.

instead of something more like

large c < XL c < L b < XL b etc.

Right now, the worst XL is just better comared to the best L. (in brackets: death to X-L dominance, needs nerfbat)


No, xlasb are bs modules, l are cruiser sized ones. A medium armor repper should in no way beat a large one (and it doesnt), same with the shield versions.

Btw, @ ccp, please fix deadspace armour repair systems, at least give centus and corpus a diiference, they both have exactly the same stats. And core is unbalanced.

[...]


XL-SBs are quite common for sub-BS hulls (CS, t3s, pimpfit weirdocruisers), and as such I see nothing wrong with the cap efficiency being aligned to the metalevel instead of the size. Against your point: BS can use heavy cap boosters.

'A medium armor repper should in no way beat a large one (and it doesnt), same with the shield versions.' - no one EVER asked fot that, but the cap conversion is twisted. Cap efficiency and NOT boost amount per time was adressed. Pls do not twist my words...

To your armor repairer statement: No. The Core- line is the weak one (budget), which repairs less for the same cap/hp ratio. The sansha/blood raiders got the actual deadspace repairers.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#486 - 2013-08-20 15:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
CCP Fozzie wrote:


  • Increase the shield bonus of some subcap shield boosters (T1, Meta, T2, Storyline, Domination, Republic Fleet) by 15%
  • Increase the shield bonus of Caldari Navy and Dread Guristas shield boosters by 5%





    • just pointing out again that it is stupid to differentiate the CN and DG boosters from other faction boosters when all of them (t2 and all faction) already have the same cap efficiency. All have identical cap efficiency to t2 boosters, all have -20% cycle time compared to t2 versions. This change makes CN and DG boosters worse than t2 for nearly all applications.

    "**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

    Never forget.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #487 - 2013-08-20 19:49:22 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    That is reserved for Dust or other FPS games.


    almost fell off my chair laughing...

    You have to admit though that the fella's maths are right. -50% cap use for an armour repairer is dangerous.

    A T2 fitted hyperion with gang links has (when all cap is coverted to repair cycles) about 360,000 ehp.

    If you half the cap use, you increase that number to the order of 700,000 - actually a little more because now cap recharge becomes a factor.

    I think we'd all have to agree that that's a little overwhelming.


    The idea behind that was that a reduction in cycle time increases your capacitor usage a lot and since some ships benefit from having two reps fitted that reduction in cycle time will be hurting your capacitor, even if you inject cap boosters.

    In case of the Hyperion,
    the reduction of cycle time in addition to the capacitor usage would give your battleship mwd a little more cycles before capping you out.

    A beam laser boats might like it even more since those beams tend to highly capaitor dependend, also even when injected.

    Assuming I didn't think about what I was doing with these numbers is simply put false.

    Imagine a cruiser - and leaving HACs out of this scenario - with a rep that uses less capacitor will help kiting a little longer with its mwd on.

    Now about that reduced cycle time,
    if I am not mistaken a tech2 medium armor rep with one accelerator rig will have a cycle time of 5.5 or 5.4 seconds instead of the 6.5 second it now has - with heat on.
    Now imagine what will happen to your capacitor with the current 160gj capacitor usage.

    I was simply putting numbers to some suitable ideas that were not coming from me alone.

    Remember that all guns and missiles got buffed but armor reps cannot keep up with the damage you will find on the field before even one cycle can land.

    An assumption about my level of intellingence with only taken one post into account is not viable.
    You may have noticed that I posted in the forums even before last week.

    And posting in a forum, in a language that is not my native language in emphasis to help active armor tanking on none bonussed, low capacitor ships is a courtesy of mine and should be taken as a token that I care.

    I could insult you back but I will let it go this time.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Fredric Wolf
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #488 - 2013-08-20 21:10:33 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    That is reserved for Dust or other FPS games.


    almost fell off my chair laughing...

    You have to admit though that the fella's maths are right. -50% cap use for an armour repairer is dangerous.

    A T2 fitted hyperion with gang links has (when all cap is coverted to repair cycles) about 360,000 ehp.

    If you half the cap use, you increase that number to the order of 700,000 - actually a little more because now cap recharge becomes a factor.

    I think we'd all have to agree that that's a little overwhelming.


    The idea behind that was that a reduction in cycle time increases your capacitor usage a lot and since some ships benefit from having two reps fitted that reduction in cycle time will be hurting your capacitor, even if you inject cap boosters.

    In case of the Hyperion,
    the reduction of cycle time in addition to the capacitor usage would give your battleship mwd a little more cycles before capping you out.

    A beam laser boats might like it even more since those beams tend to highly capaitor dependend, also even when injected.

    Assuming I didn't think about what I was doing with these numbers is simply put false.

    Imagine a cruiser - and leaving HACs out of this scenario - with a rep that uses less capacitor will help kiting a little longer with its mwd on.

    Now about that reduced cycle time,
    if I am not mistaken a tech2 medium armor rep with one accelerator rig will have a cycle time of 5.5 or 5.4 seconds instead of the 6.5 second it now has - with heat on.
    Now imagine what will happen to your capacitor with the current 160gj capacitor usage.

    I was simply putting numbers to some suitable ideas that were not coming from me alone.

    Remember that all guns and missiles got buffed but armor reps cannot keep up with the damage you will find on the field before even one cycle can land.

    An assumption about my level of intellingence with only taken one post into account is not viable.
    You may have noticed that I posted in the forums even before last week.

    And posting in a forum, in a language that is not my native language in emphasis to help active armor tanking on none bonussed, low capacitor ships is a courtesy of mine and should be taken as a token that I care.

    I could insult you back but I will let it go this time.


    I am sorry I didn't mean to insult you I am just sick of people posting on the forums with purposely misspelled words in the attempt to look cool. I thought you had a very valid point you were making. I also noticed how the first half of your typing was accurate and proper and then you second half was that ****** speech. I also do not buy that posting in a forum, in a language not you own when you have proven at least 2 times that you can speak English properly is a total cop out. Like I said again your points are good but when you type like that people will not look at it or take you seriously.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #489 - 2013-08-20 22:03:08 UTC
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    -snip-
    I am sorry I didn't mean to insult you I am just sick of people posting on the forums with purposely misspelled words in the attempt to look cool. I thought you had a very valid point you were making. I also noticed how the first half of your typing was accurate and proper and then you second half was that ****** speech. I also do not buy that posting in a forum, in a language not you own when you have proven at least 2 times that you can speak English properly is a total cop out. Like I said again your points are good but when you type like that people will not look at it or take you seriously.


    Well, that was the point in an extend.

    Someone took my idea too far and looked at some tech3 boat he would tank some phantasy amounts of dps and was talking about deadspace reps and stuff that only few people can use, or better loose on a daily basis.

    Then I was mad and didn't want to write with caps lock on.
    So in my Klingon way of exaggeration I took the liberty of misspelling words that most of the readers would know me to be able to pronounce correctly.

    But enough of that,
    I wanted the discussion back to topic and I still think that active medium and large armor reps (tech 1 and 2) could use more help.

    Even though I get a headache from thinking about it, I know why EVE is so shield buffer themed on armor tank boats these days.
    So unless someone will bring an argument that shows that I am completly off by various other things I haven't thought about yet, I still think it would be okay without breaking EVE with op armor reps.

    And no, I wouldn't fit a one billion isk module on a 10 million isk hull to prove a point (at being stubborn and have too much isk).

    In case of the Incursus,
    I don't really think that she will be unbreakable with a 15% bonus to small reps.

    Let numbers talk for us,
    for easier comparison let's say an Incursus can repair 100hp armor every 3.8 seconds with a heated tech2 rep.
    15% of 100 is 15 and 100 + 15 = 115.
    That active armor rep Incursus will still explode if an artillery fit Rupture enters the vincinity and presses "fire" on her.
    Or will cap out rapidly if a well flown kiting Kestrel keeps her range.

    So in what phantasy world would that be op?

    What we get with CCP Fozzie's boost to armor and shield mods is a free 75% of a standard exile booster or a blue pill without side effects, so I say yeay.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #490 - 2013-08-21 10:49:32 UTC
    you could do with tossing in a cap reduction change aswell especially on normal shield boosters as they use up soo much cap it forces you to use ASB's. And armour reps are so weak you have to use 2 reppers which just burns through cap .. the continuous armour reps vs boosting only makes sense when you sort out the cap issues.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Urkhan Law
    Black Rebel Rifter Club
    The Devil's Tattoo
    #491 - 2013-08-21 11:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
    elitatwo wrote:

    That active armor rep Incursus will still explode if an artillery fit Rupture enters the vincinity and presses "fire" on her.
    Or will cap out rapidly if a well flown kiting Kestrel keeps her range.
    So in what phantasy world would that be op?


    Really? An arty rupture, that's the way you measure it? And a slow ass kessie?
    It's the combination that is powerfull, Incursus is already a fast ship, with very good damage with blasters or rails, nice projection, and a very good tank. All frigs that armor tank will benefit from this changes, but Incursus thanks to his armor rep bonus will benefit more. Do you really think that incursus, of all frigates, needs this extra buff?

    I understand that this is a meta change, but other meta changes always brought minor touches to certain ships, this time there isn't any. What happened since the introduction of AAR? Too much to do? No time to think in possible consequences? Just put it live and will see what happens in a year or two with the excuse that we're waiting for the meta to settle in a game of constant meta changes?
    If you are tired, just get some vacations and slow down a bit guys.
    Cool
    Naomi Anthar
    #492 - 2013-08-21 15:47:37 UTC
    Urkhan Law wrote:
    elitatwo wrote:

    That active armor rep Incursus will still explode if an artillery fit Rupture enters the vincinity and presses "fire" on her.
    Or will cap out rapidly if a well flown kiting Kestrel keeps her range.
    So in what phantasy world would that be op?


    Really? An arty rupture, that's the way you measure it? And a slow ass kessie?
    It's the combination that is powerfull, Incursus is already a fast ship, with very good damage with blasters or rails, nice projection, and a very good tank. All frigs that armor tank will benefit from this changes, but Incursus thanks to his armor rep bonus will benefit more. Do you really think that incursus, of all frigates, needs this extra buff?

    I understand that this is a meta change, but other meta changes always brought minor touches to certain ships, this time there isn't any. What happened since the introduction of AAR? Too much to do? No time to think in possible consequences? Just put it live and will see what happens in a year or two with the excuse that we're waiting for the meta to settle in a game of constant meta changes?
    If you are tired, just get some vacations and slow down a bit guys.
    Cool


    Man incursus is my favourite prey. You may think it's fast - but is not.

    Let's consider 2 options :

    1. Incursus with cap booster = dead incursus , sure it reps but you can kite it at scram range and it will die eventually. Not like you could kill it before cap charges died pre 1.1. Probably worst fit i ever seen ;). Not so fast when webed and cannot counterweb + it usually uses explo rig - you may think it's not much but it slows him down. Don't engage it with atron , merlin etc that relies on blaster damage lol.

    2. Incursus with web (without cap booster, single rep) - ok this one is more dangerous. And i would not suggest flying at 0 in FW plex. But in the end again it's bound to use explo rig that slow it down. It's not THAT fast really. Most of the time people take 200mm plate too - which is great mistake in this case. With plate and explo rig - i could easily make distance with not so fast ships like tormentor.

    So everything that is faster (MANY ships) counters it somehow.
    Everything that brawls at very close range ... will have extremly hard time vs incursus (merlin ? atron ? etc).

    Here is list of ships i use to screw over any kind of incursus:

    1. Tormentor - SUPER HARD COUNTER ... if you go with active tank and don't plate it - very important. You need to be faster even a bit.

    2. Tristan - yes ladies tristan after buffs to mass and speed can keep distance when properly fit.(not talking about mwd kiter lol)

    3. Executioner - faster and with aar will either chew through single rep incu or at least will be able to disengage dual rep one.(out of boredom)

    4. Crucifier - much praised blaster tracking can be screwed over hard by this bugger.(~~ - 63% ).

    5 Breacher - should be faster and with more mids can easily dictate range of engagement ?

    6. Slow ass kestrel ? with 2 webs + scram can keep incursus at distance where it deals close to no damage.

    I could go on but ... i honestly think incursus is not that good ship.

    I will go even further - i think other ships may benefit from this change even more.

    Story is simple - if you wasn't able to outbrawl incu before - you won't be able after this change. And if you was able to kite him to death before at scram range - you will still be doing this bro ;).
    Urkhan Law
    Black Rebel Rifter Club
    The Devil's Tattoo
    #493 - 2013-08-21 17:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
    Naomi Anthar wrote:

    I will go even further - i think other ships may benefit from this change even more.
    Story is simple - if you wasn't able to outbrawl incu before - you won't be able after this change. And if you was able to kite him to death before at scram range - you will still be doing this bro


    Some ships will have to use a neut/or drop a plate/or use 2 webs to kill a standart incursus, while incursus will not have to do nothing to kill most standart fitted ships. Let's not even talk about rails who do not fit a plate.

    I'm very rifter biased as you know :-P
    Let's see how it goes after the update, really hope you're right.

    OBS: Not plated, only 2 Combat frigates are faster than incursus, rifter and breacher. Attack frigates are all faster than the Incursus of course.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #494 - 2013-08-21 18:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
    Harvey James wrote:
    you could do with tossing in a cap reduction change aswell especially on normal shield boosters as they use up soo much cap it forces you to use ASB's. And armour reps are so weak you have to use 2 reppers which just burns through cap .. the continuous armour reps vs boosting only makes sense when you sort out the cap issues.


    I would be careful on reducing capacitor use on shield boosters because you can have a ton of booster cycles than armor rep cycles with one cap booster.

    But if we were to pursue this maybe we could talk about changing some values on the core defense capacitor safeguard to a small extend.

    You should view asbs as a buffer and not as an active tank.

    A little sidenote here since we are talking offtopic anyway,
    I am flying active tanked Caldari ships for almost seven years now, added Gallente ships last year and Amarr ships a few months ago.
    Yet I have a strong passion for active armor tanking and the lore behind them.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #495 - 2013-08-22 18:33:00 UTC
    No form of active tank can be viewed correctly as "tank" in pvp, save for a few cap-stable Gist-based shield fits (these need to be gimped).

    In PVE, where there is enough cap, yes.

    In PVP an active tank is a means for converting cap boosters into EHP. The important metrics are rate (in order to keep up with incoming DPS and neuts) and efficiency.

    The efficiency is important in order to prevent cap booster depletion prior to destroying your enemy.

    Even an ASB (which is simply a derivative of shield boosting that it immune to cap warfare) is such a converter.

    The moment you reduce cap requirements for tanking to the point where they can be permanently run on cap recharge alone on a PVP-fitted ship, you will break eve.

    An example of broken eve is the gist x-type perma-repping tengu with crystal impants that will permanently tank 2500dps.

    The game of Eve will be improved, in my view, by re-addressing modules that can achieve this game-breaking feat.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Phaade
    LowKey Ops
    Shadow Cartel
    #496 - 2013-08-22 22:13:36 UTC
    Vaju Enki wrote:
    Karl Planck wrote:
    +1 though i do worry about two ships.

    The hawk :
    Will have an INSANE tank with faction reps/crystals/blue pill

    The Incursus:
    Already borderline OP with the reps, even without boosts. Nuets are a somewhat effective counter but a 15% bonus on top will make this little brick nearly unkillable to its t1 counterparts (unbonused)


    Some ships will be stupidly overpowered with this changes.

    The Incursus will destroy t1 frigate balance.


    Just as the Deimos destroyed HAC balance...
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #497 - 2013-08-22 23:37:16 UTC
    Phaade wrote:
    Vaju Enki wrote:
    Karl Planck wrote:
    +1 though i do worry about two ships.

    The hawk :
    Will have an INSANE tank with faction reps/crystals/blue pill

    The Incursus:
    Already borderline OP with the reps, even without boosts. Nuets are a somewhat effective counter but a 15% bonus on top will make this little brick nearly unkillable to its t1 counterparts (unbonused)


    Some ships will be stupidly overpowered with this changes.

    The Incursus will destroy t1 frigate balance.


    Just as the Deimos destroyed HAC balance...


    You are right!

    On TQ we never run into gangs that have more than one ship or gatecamps, never happened and never will.

    Everybody will just dock up and run if they ever see an Incursus or a Deimos on d-scan. I know I will Cool

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #498 - 2013-08-22 23:43:20 UTC
    There never was a HAC balance. It was vagabonds, zealots, ishtars and nothing else.

    Now the choice is wider, depending on the role.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Archa4 Badasaz
    Vangazhi
    #499 - 2013-08-23 01:08:00 UTC
    I started exploring when Pithum C-Type Boosters were at 300m a piece. Then prices for them rose to 500m. After Odissey came, they started a steep drop, and now are at ~ 170m. Guess what will happen to those prices after 1.1?
    Why are you nerfing the income of explorers?
    Lady Manus
    Lumen et Umbra
    #500 - 2013-08-23 21:41:54 UTC
    The proposed changes for Shield boosters are overall bad imho,

    While the gist boosters are already good, pith boosters are getting a major nerf, prices already dropped to almost nothing and no one will ever use those after 1.1.

    Please reconsider: remove all shiedl boosters bonus or give pith boosters at least 15% or, better, 20-25% bonus to large and x-large ones.

    LM