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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

First post
Author
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#461 - 2013-08-14 17:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

The additional 15% breaks pretty much the entire Gallente repair line of ships.

The additional 15% is to compensate for the loss of resistance bonus form warfare links, with links applied it puts them in the same (or extremely close) position as they were before.


Legion-boosted Gallente active-repped ships were broken.

Given how different buffer fits scale compared to active-repped fits with encounter size, all active rep bonuses should just be removed from the game. Gallente hulls would still often use armor reps because it lets them maintain their speed, but when fights escalated beyond the size where local active reps are useful these hulls would switch to buffer rather than being completely trash.
Kami3k
The Lucky Bible Company
#462 - 2013-08-14 22:52:11 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

The additional 15% breaks pretty much the entire Gallente repair line of ships.

The additional 15% is to compensate for the loss of resistance bonus form warfare links, with links applied it puts them in the same (or extremely close) position as they were before.


Legion-boosted Gallente active-repped ships were broken.

Given how different buffer fits scale compared to active-repped fits with encounter size, all active rep bonuses should just be removed from the game. Gallente hulls would still often use armor reps because it lets them maintain their speed, but when fights escalated beyond the size where local active reps are useful these hulls would switch to buffer rather than being completely trash.


Not everything in the game happens in a large fleet.
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2013-08-15 02:27:55 UTC
Kami3k wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

The additional 15% breaks pretty much the entire Gallente repair line of ships.

The additional 15% is to compensate for the loss of resistance bonus form warfare links, with links applied it puts them in the same (or extremely close) position as they were before.


Legion-boosted Gallente active-repped ships were broken.

Given how different buffer fits scale compared to active-repped fits with encounter size, all active rep bonuses should just be removed from the game. Gallente hulls would still often use armor reps because it lets them maintain their speed, but when fights escalated beyond the size where local active reps are useful these hulls would switch to buffer rather than being completely trash.


Not everything in the game happens in a large fleet.


You have logis even in small fleets, all rep boni (bar maybe on frigs) are dumb and shouldnt be in game as they are.
Vengar
Final Dimension
#464 - 2013-08-15 02:32:43 UTC
Include a POS cargo scanner for mobile labs, Hangars ect..in this expansion please and thanks
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#465 - 2013-08-15 07:51:14 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
+1 though i do worry about two ships.

The hawk :
Will have an INSANE tank with faction reps/crystals/blue pill

The Incursus:
Already borderline OP with the reps, even without boosts. Nuets are a somewhat effective counter but a 15% bonus on top will make this little brick nearly unkillable to its t1 counterparts (unbonused)


Some ships will be stupidly overpowered with this changes.

The Incursus will destroy t1 frigate balance.

The Tears Must Flow

Kane Fenris
NWP
#466 - 2013-08-15 07:52:22 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
+1 though i do worry about two ships.

The hawk :
Will have an INSANE tank with faction reps/crystals/blue pill

The Incursus:
Already borderline OP with the reps, even without boosts. Nuets are a somewhat effective counter but a 15% bonus on top will make this little brick nearly unkillable to its t1 counterparts (unbonused)


Some ships will be stupidly overpowered with this changes.

The Incursus will destroy t1 frigate balance.



i fear this might be true the ship is already a pretty tough nut
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#467 - 2013-08-15 08:52:49 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
+1 though i do worry about two ships.

The hawk :
Will have an INSANE tank with faction reps/crystals/blue pill

The Incursus:
Already borderline OP with the reps, even without boosts. Nuets are a somewhat effective counter but a 15% bonus on top will make this little brick nearly unkillable to its t1 counterparts (unbonused)

Some ships will be stupidly overpowered with this changes.

The Incursus will destroy t1 frigate balance.

i fear this might be true the ship is already a pretty tough nut

Incursus is just the most pronounced of the lot due to dps/EHP ratios of the frigate class, but the issue exists all the way up the chain.
They could keep the 7.5%/lvl, but ... reduce grid/cap to a point where you have 'total EP' (ie. full AAR cycle + base) equal to nearest comparable competitor x1.25 before capout (that is where grid reduction comes in, they should have to sacrifice a goodly chunk of dps to get more EHP by way of injecting).

Problem is that Gallente boats have accumulated flaws through the years as neglected hulls tend to do and with Devs sorting each problem but treating them separately (not stepping back to see whole picture) ... then you throw in a tangential change such as this ...
They now have: more cap than reasonable, more fittings than reasonable, more mobility than reasonable, they have .. all issues with the hulls pre-tierice, but by fixing each part the whole become OP. They NEED to have an easily exploitable or built-in weakness as neuting is 'meh' since all Gallente boats have enough mids for injecting .. no ship should require a gang to bring down with similar sized ships.

ASB 'issue' can be solved by giving them the AAR treatment: cap use with some esoteric fuel source to load (there has to be something from PI that fits the bill!) or simply limiting them one per hull as with the AAR.
Normal boosters can be addressed by going over the grids of the various ships so that a choice can be forced if the injector is wanted on top .. in that case, consider changing the boost penalty on relays so that damage/speed sacrifice option is made available as well.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#468 - 2013-08-15 09:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Is there any chance that the progression from gist large to gist x-large will be investigated?
At the moment, the gist c-type X-large is continuing the increase from cap efficiency compared to large, instead of being aligned with the meta level.

so gist large c < b < a < x < XL c < XL b etc.

instead of something more like

large c < XL c < L b < XL b etc.

Right now, the worst XL is just better comared to the best L. (in brackets: death to X-L dominance, needs nerfbat)
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#469 - 2013-08-15 10:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Problem is that Gallente boats have accumulated flaws through the years as neglected hulls tend to do and with Devs sorting each problem but treating them separately (not stepping back to see whole picture) ... then you throw in a tangential change such as this ...


This is an interesting problem for CCP. Gallente self rep blaster-fit ships are designed to be up close and personal. i.e. within scram range. For that reason their only way out of an engagement is by winning it. The outcome is digital.

Under those circumstances, if you construct the ship to have a 'fair' (50%) chance of winning a 1:1, it's chances in a 1:2 will rapidly drop to zero.

So in order to be viable in any sort of gang skirmish, it has to be a little more powerful so that it can survive long enough against 2 or 3 opponents for help to arrive.

This must be a very difficult thing to balance as a game designer.

I have no problem with gallente being OP at close range brawling, minmatar being OP at edge-of-disruptor-range skirmishing, amarr being OP at mid-range fleet work and caldari being OP at slinging missiles from beyond the edge of lock range.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#470 - 2013-08-15 12:05:45 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I have no problem with gallente being OP at close range brawling, minmatar being OP at edge-of-disruptor-range skirmishing, amarr being OP at mid-range fleet work and caldari being OP at slinging missiles from beyond the edge of lock range.

Nor I.

But if a person can only eek out a 50/50 with a 1k+ tank and 5-600 dps within scram/web range as is the case of the Diemos then that person has problems that the Devs cannot solve .. hell, I'd gladly take a 3-4:1 fight with a ship sporting those characteristics.

There is more than enough room to down/side-tweak before you get to the 50/50 or even 2:1 mark in when it comes to the rep bonus blaster brawlers. They need a weakness beyond neut-spam (can be weaker cap for instance), pure and simple.

Caveat: Reason why I do not want an OP active rep/blaster hull (besides the obvious) is that they will flood space and force everyone else to pack neuts just to compete .. and neuts affect my Amarr boats a lot more than the rep/blaster hulls as I do not have all the mids to mitigate their effect. Just so we are on the level Smile
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#471 - 2013-08-15 12:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I have no problem with gallente being OP at close range brawling, minmatar being OP at edge-of-disruptor-range skirmishing, amarr being OP at mid-range fleet work and caldari being OP at slinging missiles from beyond the edge of lock range.

Nor I.

But if a person can only eek out a 50/50 with a 1k+ tank and 5-600 dps within scram/web range as is the case of the Diemos then that person has problems that the Devs cannot solve .. hell, I'd gladly take a 3-4:1 fight with a ship sporting those characteristics.

There is more than enough room to down/side-tweak before you get to the 50/50 or even 2:1 mark in when it comes to the rep bonus blaster brawlers. They need a weakness beyond neut-spam (can be weaker cap for instance), pure and simple.

Caveat: Reason why I do not want an OP active rep/blaster hull (besides the obvious) is that they will flood space and force everyone else to pack neuts just to compete .. and neuts affect my Amarr boats a lot more than the rep/blaster hulls as I do not have all the mids to mitigate their effect. Just so we are on the level Smile


Welll... first of all, on a pvp op I always ensure that there are neuts in the fleet.

Secondly, deimos is not *that* op. It will die to a neut-fitted battleship eventually, but it is strong enough to hold on long enough for help to arrive, which I think is it's role. Certainly that's how I've been using it - a hardened point ship.

It will also (eventually) die to a properly flown vagabond. I cannot speak for other ships since I am not an expert in amarr or caldari pvp.

Interestingly no-one has mentioned cruise missiles. I lost one deimos to a pair of ravens fitted with mohlnir cruise missiles and target painters - no neuts involved. Again, with a neut, one of these ravens could have taken it I am sure. This makes me wonder whether there are opportunities for defeating it with EM guns like lasers end artillery/autocannons with EMP. Certainly you want a target painter on it, particularly if it's in a skirmish-boosted fleet. But if it's in a fleet and you're fighting it, you want to be in a fleet too...

Everything has a counter (except the 100mn tengu... sigh)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#472 - 2013-08-15 12:24:35 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
[quote=Veshta Yoshida]
I have no problem with gallente being OP at close range brawling, minmatar being OP at edge-of-disruptor-range skirmishing, amarr being OP at mid-range fleet work and caldari being OP at slinging missiles from beyond the edge of lock range.


This is not happening at the frigate level.
The damage barrage is able to put at scram range is easily denied by the rep power of the incursus, it will be worse after 1.1, while the damage null is putting out is not easily repaired. Also the only T1 frig with a falloff bonus is a galente frig.
It would be great if it worked like you wrote, but it doesn't.


Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#473 - 2013-08-15 12:36:29 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Welll... first of all, on a pvp op I always ensure that there are neuts in the fleet....

Not everything is fleet and for every point of "weak" the active rep bonus may accrue in blobby weather it gains five points of "OP" as scale decreases. Otherwise a sensible thing, one can never have enough neuts in case of a logistics or Hail-Mary carrier appearing.

As for the rest .. you really want to balance HACs against ships 3 (4 if you include T3) sizes up the ladder? If so then all the other hulls will need significant changes Smile
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#474 - 2013-08-15 13:08:55 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Welll... first of all, on a pvp op I always ensure that there are neuts in the fleet....

Not everything is fleet and for every point of "weak" the active rep bonus may accrue in blobby weather it gains five points of "OP" as scale decreases. Otherwise a sensible thing, one can never have enough neuts in case of a logistics or Hail-Mary carrier appearing.

As for the rest .. you really want to balance HACs against ships 3 (4 if you include T3) sizes up the ladder? If so then all the other hulls will need significant changes Smile


I think it's reasonable to compare a HAC to a battleship, since they cost a similar amount.

All that tech has to have a purpose.

Nevertheless, a HAC will always be susceptible to a heavy neut, so if I were in a battleship/HAC 1v1 , I think I'd prefer to be in the battleship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#475 - 2013-08-15 13:24:30 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


You have logis even in small fleets, all rep boni (bar maybe on frigs) are dumb and shouldnt be in game as they are.


That is strictly a PvP interpretation. The active rep bonuses are quite good on PvE boats.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#476 - 2013-08-15 13:31:47 UTC
Onictus wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


You have logis even in small fleets, all rep boni (bar maybe on frigs) are dumb and shouldnt be in game as they are.


That is strictly a PvP interpretation. The active rep bonuses are quite good on PvE boats.


PVE balance:
I used to think in terms of PVE for game balance, but these days I realise that where it really matters in in PVP. Most ship losses occur in PVP and this is where incremental improvements can prove pivotal. PVE for many is "just for the money" and they will just pick the best ship for the job without any emotional attachment. They treat it like a piece of farm machinery, if you will.

PVE players tend to get more emotionally attached to their PVE ships I think, since they see them not as workhorses, but as a mark of their progress in the game. That's certainly where I was a few years ago.

Local tank:
I use local tank in PVP small fleets of cruisers and battleships. However in order to do so successfully, you have to be *very* careful about your targets, and you need to take some ECM.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#477 - 2013-08-15 13:36:25 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Onictus wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


You have logis even in small fleets, all rep boni (bar maybe on frigs) are dumb and shouldnt be in game as they are.


That is strictly a PvP interpretation. The active rep bonuses are quite good on PvE boats.


PVE balance:
I used to think in terms of PVE for game balance, but these days I realise that where it really matters in in PVP. Most ship losses occur in PVP and this is where incremental improvements can prove pivotal. PVE for many is "just for the money" and they will just pick the best ship for the job without any emotional attachment. They treat it like a piece of farm machinery, if you will.

PVE players tend to get more emotionally attached to their PVE ships I think, since they see them not as workhorses, but as a mark of their progress in the game. That's certainly where I was a few years ago.

Local tank:
I use local tank in PVP small fleets of cruisers and battleships. However in order to do so successfully, you have to be *very* careful about your targets, and you need to take some ECM.




Well considering that maybe 1/4th of the accounts in the game are PvP characters, much less PvP only you can't ingore that side of the house.

I can say fairly certainly that CCP isn't.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#478 - 2013-08-15 13:46:38 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Everything has a counter (except the 100mn tengu... sigh)


Web bonus armor Loki with faction point, huge speed strong tank and once it gets on top of it Tengu melts

In groups it's even easier, get a lachesis a pilgrim and fast frig with med asb or aar, point and burn it.

If there are so many legends about 100mn Tengus it's because players want to bring conventional setups to fight unconventional fits.
It's like shooting explosive dmg on a shield navy domi: worthless
it's like bring a single scram on a fight against missile frigs: worthless you'll never point one if the pilot is not a dumb one

Tengus are not as strong as many claim just because they don't pick the right tools to fight them. As soon as any 100mn pilot gets web by a loki at 40km don't worry, 100mn or not he will run away unless he gets friends on grid (at some point all fights I have lost with my different Tengu set ups were all vs web bonus lokis asbnano fitted, they're close to impossible to kill for a tengu unless bad fits or bad pilot)

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#479 - 2013-08-16 18:40:23 UTC
@ Fozzie

any chance of fixing AAR's anytime soon? I've offered many solutions as has other people

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#480 - 2013-08-17 02:59:31 UTC
Last year in the armor tanking 1.5 thread I already said that medium and large armor reps need a reduction in cycle time and a reduction in capacitor use.

The reason why the medium tech2 armor rep + an 800mm plate works well in some cases is that you need the extra armor layer for the rep cycle to hit.

In case of the medium tech2 rep, a lot can happen in 7.7 seconds and 160gj on a 1600gj capacitor is very taxing.

If some people took thier time to read and comprehend, what I was proposing, they would realize that it wasn't unreasonable.

For the lazy one, here are some numbers to stare at:

zee current tech2 medium armor rep haz
15 seconds cycle time
needs 160gj capacitorz

wiz ma proposal iz wood be,
10 seconds cycle time
needs 80gj capacitorz

or in other wordz -33% cycle time and -50% capacitor usage for zee tech2 medium armor rep.

I waz noze talking about §$%//%$" deadspace or §%&$" officer reps.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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