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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2221 - 2013-08-19 22:30:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2222 - 2013-08-19 22:41:50 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
DeadDuck
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#2223 - 2013-08-19 23:05:30 UTC
Most of the fits I see being flown in singularity will be a laugh in tranquility. Dual reppers/XL ASB with insane active tanking are good in singularity where everyhting is "free" and full snake/crystal sets are the rule, but in tranquiltiy thats the buff that counts since in 99% of the times you will be flying in gangs with logistic supports and with primarys being called.

No matter if you can tank 2000 DPS, if your EHP is about 15k, it will insta explode under the fire of 3/4 enemy ships. So basing all the conclusions in the results of flying the hacs in singularity is doomed to be wrong since is not how it works "in real life". It can give some hints for the vagabond as example but not many more.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2224 - 2013-08-19 23:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.

this seems accurate.
it basically works like all other active rep bonused ships: great solo, horrible in fleets.
it's essentially the new sacrilege with more DPS and less range. so... how many people currently fly a sac? yeah, none.

id bet you any amount of isk that it wont see use in the long run either.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2225 - 2013-08-19 23:17:34 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.

this seems accurate.
it basically works like all other active rep bonused ships: great solo, horrible in fleets.
it's essentially the new sacrilege with more DPS and less range. so... how many people currently fly a sac? yeah, none.

id bet you any amount of isk that it wont see use in the long run either.


I have also flown the Sacrilege for about 90 minutes. Less time purely because I don't yet have T2 missile skills. Nevertheless even I got it to 500dps of any damage type (right into my opponent's resistance hole).
I fitted it to be dual prop to give it a disengagement option since it's tank is not as strong as a deimos. The dual prop gives it mobility, sig tanking, a defence against scrams. It's strong capacitor makes it effectively immune to a heavy neut. 2 or 3 if you couple that with a medium cap booster with navy 400 charges.

It's a strong versatile ship that will work well in small gangs or larger fleets. I was really taken with it and will definitely be using it.

As for the deimos in TQ, I agree with the above. I'll be fitting it single rep with an 800 plate. The rep will mostly be to patch up between fights rather than something to rely upon in an extended engagement. I won't fly the deimos solo because while it is very strong up close, it's very vulnerable when more than 10km away from a target, unless fitted with railgun in which case it's vulnerable to anything within 15 kms.

These are all good ships,and they all have vulnerabilities. This is a good thing. I sincerely hope the days of "fly ship x or die" are gone. I want combat to require thought, teamwork, feints, retreats and finally outright violence. The new HACs give us these opportunities. I encourage you to embrace them.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2226 - 2013-08-20 00:12:35 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
actually i've ben using it with 800 plate and single MAR, medium cap booster, 400 boosters. needs a small PG implant.


Actually, with ions and the ancillary rep, you don't need implants at all. Give it a shot!


It worked well for me with the ancillary until I encountered 2 opponents at once.

The 800 plate was not enough to see me through the reload. I prefer the predictability of the MAR, but I accept that it can't mitigate as much early-fight damage.

Jerrick, we've always seen eye to eye mate but I think it's ok that the HACs have better cap management than the CSs. The HACs are going to be in the brawl at the start and need to last the course. You (I) wouldn't commit the command ship to scram/neut range until the fight was clearly going in my favour.

I think this is where in practice the tactical advantage of the EOS may become apparent, since it can apply damage from 30km away via drones or sentries while maintaining its options.

Presumably the same is true of a rail-fitted astarte, and the minny ships.

In this use case, the EOS has the advantage of being able to engage at any range like a missile boat (with the obvious downside that drones can be blapped).

It seems to me to all balance out. Let's organise a 10v10 fight on Sisi and see how it works out?



/o\, you never ever reaload the maar midfight, never. Thats pure math.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2227 - 2013-08-20 00:24:05 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

/o\, you never ever reaload the maar midfight, never. Thats pure math.



You don't do it deliberately no, but if you have auto-reload on and you get neutralised at the wrong moment, you get no choice in the matter (fail, I know...)

I have done the maths and to be honest if the ship is going to survive under the tank of an unloaded MAAR then it's going to survive a whole lot longer under the tank of a MAR.

I have agonised over this choice for some time, and my overall experience with the MAR is a happier one on all ships except frigates and destroyers.

I personally feel that the xAARs are broken. I'm sure I'm not alone in that respect. I think the reload time needs to be reducable with skills down to 15s for a small, 30 seconds for a medium and 45 seconds for a large.

Then I think they'll be viable.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2228 - 2013-08-20 00:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Not really, i dont like them as much either but they are better then a t2 version for quite some time (about 3 minutes), by that time in a deimos there is quite a chance that you killed something, with 600dps by the time a mar is better you could have killed 2 canes (as you do over 100k damage in that time). For a linked version normal ones are better but maar arent useless.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2229 - 2013-08-20 00:39:42 UTC
Fair point mate. More testing required...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2230 - 2013-08-20 02:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Everyone can debate the balance tweaks till you go blue in the face, but unless CCP revises the cost of the HACs, they will continue to be the "occasional pimp lark PvP" of the rich at best, or the "Bears' eco choice v/s T3s" for PvE

Very approximate, since the costs vary wildly by race, lets take Gallente ship line:

[T1] Tristan, full T2 fit: 8-10M
[Navy] Navy Comet: 25M
[T2] Ishkur: 30-35M

[T1] Vexor: 40-45M
[Navy] Vexor NI: 100-110M (and i must specify, this is one of the most expensive Navy cruisers e.g. SFI is half the cost)
[T2] Ishtar: ~200M

[T1] Myrmidon: 75-85M
[Navy] Brutix NI: 200-220M
[T2] Eos: 220-250M

Is the Ishtar really going to deliver 2X Navy Vexor performance? And this is the most biased (in favor of HAC) economic comparison. E.g. Scythe Fleet vs Munnin is a near 4X difference.

Fully T2 fit HACs need their material requirement brought down, so within a month of 1.1 the avg price settles at around the ~130-140M mark. (essentially about 3X T1 counterpart at most, 1.5X Navy Cruiser counterpart).

[Again: I fear, an issue is that except the Gallente Navy Cruisers, the others are far cheaper.]

Ofcourse, as the ticket price increase into multi hundred millions, the 'multiple' math becomes hard to compare i.e. Even though Comet is 3X a tristan price, its still sub 30M. The Navy Brutix is not a trivial expense, even if its 2.5-3X a Myrmidon (this is assuming we agree that it delivers far superior performance over the T1 BCs)

The Combat BCs deliver far better performance/isk ratio. The ABCs provide a very unique purpose, which no HAC can. The Navy BCs i frankly have flown far too little to comment.

TLDR:
- The rebalance is very needed and one is thankful to CCP for, [SAVE THE MUNNIN: Make it a launcher platform] but
- Price too high
- Compared to post-teiricide T1 Cruisers, Navy Cruisers, Combat BCs, ABCs and Navy BCs, what role is the HAC fulfilling for this huge price and extra skill train time
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2231 - 2013-08-20 03:01:46 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well yes... that's its job...



Try the Deimos out on Singularity, then get back to me.


I have, extensively. Both with and without fleet boosts and drugs.

I have seen what it can kill solo and I have seen how it is beaten.

You generally won't beat it in a close-up brawl unless you bring 2 neuts (try a neut ishtar). However, it's not the fastest ship so it can be kited and killed by many of the faster ships available.

It will defeat a badly flown/fitted battleship but has a harder time against a well fitted/flown one.

It also has a hard time against navy BCs (although it will kill a navy drake at close quarters, because the DNI is designed for remote DPS). It won't catch many of the navy cruisers.

It's an excellent primary tackler with good staying power against larger foes. It's disengagement options are limited and its tank can be overwhelmed, particularly with EM ammo (kiting zealots and sacrileges and vagabonds are quite dangerous to it if well flown).

read back through the forums, I flew it for 12 hours non-stop before posting about my findings.

this seems accurate.
it basically works like all other active rep bonused ships: great solo, horrible in fleets.
it's essentially the new sacrilege with more DPS and less range. so... how many people currently fly a sac? yeah, none.

id bet you any amount of isk that it wont see use in the long run either.


I have also flown the Sacrilege for about 90 minutes. Less time purely because I don't yet have T2 missile skills. Nevertheless even I got it to 500dps of any damage type (right into my opponent's resistance hole).
I fitted it to be dual prop to give it a disengagement option since it's tank is not as strong as a deimos. The dual prop gives it mobility, sig tanking, a defence against scrams. It's strong capacitor makes it effectively immune to a heavy neut. 2 or 3 if you couple that with a medium cap booster with navy 400 charges.

It's a strong versatile ship that will work well in small gangs or larger fleets. I was really taken with it and will definitely be using it.

As for the deimos in TQ, I agree with the above. I'll be fitting it single rep with an 800 plate. The rep will mostly be to patch up between fights rather than something to rely upon in an extended engagement. I won't fly the deimos solo because while it is very strong up close, it's very vulnerable when more than 10km away from a target, unless fitted with railgun in which case it's vulnerable to anything within 15 kms.

These are all good ships,and they all have vulnerabilities. This is a good thing. I sincerely hope the days of "fly ship x or die" are gone. I want combat to require thought, teamwork, feints, retreats and finally outright violence. The new HACs give us these opportunities. I encourage you to embrace them.

oh i meant sac as it is now on TQ.
post patch sac will be way better than it is now and tons better than the deimos since it's actually useful in fleets.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2232 - 2013-08-20 04:02:32 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

oh i meant sac as it is now on TQ.
post patch sac will be way better than it is now and tons better than the deimos since it's actually useful in fleets.


Of the changes made to it which ones make it way better than it is currently on TQ?
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2233 - 2013-08-20 05:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
ArcticPrism wrote:


Of the changes made to it which ones make it way better than it is currently on TQ?


[1] Missile velocity bonus means you can kite in point range with HAMs

[2] Boost to MAR/MAAR repping amounts by 15% in 1.1

[3] MWD Class bonus [reduced sig], further helps in mitigating damage while kiting in above role

[4] Though CAP was never the SACs problem, its even better Cap mgmt now [All HACs have their cap recharge per second set to around 5.5 rather than the former 3.5 - 4.5 cap/sec]

[5] Larger drone bay AND more bandwidth, either full flight of med drones or a spare flight of dishonor ECM lights to GTFO i.e. better counter vs tacklers OR more power if brawling as dual prop

[6] More PG helps get in the Med Neut in the spare high, without using anci rig, means more tank if youre flying the solo/small gang dual prop variety or in fleets

Further, minor but useful buffs:

[7] All HACs will gain 7-8 sensor strength, putting their average Sensor Strength at 22 which is right around combat battleship range. [Helps vs ECM drones and multi-racial ECM]

[8] All HACs gain 15k to 25k lock range [Helps RR Ball fleets v/s Sensor Damps]

Want More?
Boris Amarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2234 - 2013-08-20 05:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Boris Amarr
Navy Omen VS Zealot
http://s24.postimg.org/f9tuk94ut/Navy_Omen_vs_Zealot.png

Navy Omen vs Zealot
Speed ........................ 1962 vs 1462
Align ............................ 7.2 vs 10.6
Damge (with drones). ... 409 vs 406
Optimal (Scorch) ........... 34 vs 34
Dronebay ....................... 40 vs 0
Capacitor ................... 1671 vs 1519
Cap peak recharge ....... 19.8 vs 17.1
Lock Range ................ 71.9 vs 68.8
Maximum Target ............. 7 vs 6
Scann Resolution ....... 400 vs 382
Sensor Strength ........... 20 vs 15
Signature ................... 600 vs 750
Armor ....................... 9703 vs 8813

Why is Zealot worse that Navy Omen by all this attributes?

Zealot has resistances (and total EHP) better than Navy Omen only.

I think Zealot must have dronebay at least for 5 light drones and much more speed!!!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2235 - 2013-08-20 06:24:08 UTC
Boris Amarr wrote:
Navy Omen VS Zealot
http://s24.postimg.org/f9tuk94ut/Navy_Omen_vs_Zealot.png

Navy Omen vs Zealot
Speed ........................ 1962 vs 1462
Align ............................ 7.2 vs 10.6
Damge (with drones). ... 409 vs 406
Optimal (Scorch) ........... 34 vs 34
Dronebay ....................... 40 vs 0
Capacitor ................... 1671 vs 1519
Cap peak recharge ....... 19.8 vs 17.1
Lock Range ................ 71.9 vs 68.8
Maximum Target ............. 7 vs 6
Scann Resolution ....... 400 vs 382
Sensor Strength ........... 20 vs 15
Signature ................... 600 vs 750
Armor ....................... 9703 vs 8813

Why is Zealot worse that Navy Omen by all this attributes?

Zealot has resistances (and total EHP) better than Navy Omen only.

I think Zealot must have dronebay at least for 5 light drones and much more speed!!!


Take a look at ehp and resitance profile (epecially with legion links) and youll see.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2236 - 2013-08-20 08:02:49 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Take a look at ehp and resitance profile (epecially with legion links) and youll see.

The Nanonomomom's tank is its speed, who cares about resist profiles if nothing in your weight class can catch you? So I'll see your Legion links and raise you a set of Loki links Big smile

The Nomen config, with its specialized niche but option to act in swarm porcupines, would have been perfect for the Zealot but Devs decided on a topsy-turvy interpretation of T1/Navy when they designed the thing.

Fast kiting Zealot with range, only three mids and no drones vs. Nomen with range, same mids and 50m3 drones .. swap the mobility and its balanced out automatically plus we can put the call for Zealot drones to rest for good as it would be redundant.

But it would require Zealot capacitor to be nerfed from proposed HAC stats to introduce injector dependency when kiting and the vulnerability it presents .. wishes and hopes are eternal.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2237 - 2013-08-20 08:24:29 UTC
The nomen can easily be cought and killed, it really isnt hard to fight. But yes its a lot better then a zealot at solo stuff, in nearly any sort of logi supported fleet the zealot is way better though.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2238 - 2013-08-20 08:59:06 UTC
Boris Amarr wrote:
Navy Omen VS Zealot
http://s24.postimg.org/f9tuk94ut/Navy_Omen_vs_Zealot.png

Navy Omen vs Zealot
Speed ........................ 1962 vs 1462
Align ............................ 7.2 vs 10.6
Damge (with drones). ... 409 vs 406
Optimal (Scorch) ........... 34 vs 34
Dronebay ....................... 40 vs 0
Capacitor ................... 1671 vs 1519
Cap peak recharge ....... 19.8 vs 17.1
Lock Range ................ 71.9 vs 68.8
Maximum Target ............. 7 vs 6
Scann Resolution ....... 400 vs 382
Sensor Strength ........... 20 vs 15
Signature ................... 600 vs 750
Armor ....................... 9703 vs 8813

Why is Zealot worse that Navy Omen by all this attributes?

Zealot has resistances (and total EHP) better than Navy Omen only.

I think Zealot must have dronebay at least for 5 light drones and much more speed!!!


The signature of a the zealot is not 750 under MWD. It has a 50% reduction to sig penalty. So it's doing 1462 m/s with a sig radius of 500ish. That will mitigate an epic amount of damage from guns and missiles.

In addition, as mentioned, T2 resists. The sensor strength you post here looks like pre-1.1 numbers. Check the ship in sisi.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2239 - 2013-08-20 09:29:56 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

oh i meant sac as it is now on TQ.
post patch sac will be way better than it is now and tons better than the deimos since it's actually useful in fleets.


You mean because it applies less than half of the damage of a rail Deimos, while being slower and less agile? Sure, it has 7-8K more EHP, but that doesn't really matter when dps is only 200 vs 500 of the rail Deimos. (Target: MWDing Deimos that can kite the Sac forever)

Comparing blaster Deimos to HAM Sac looks just way worse for the Sac, applied damage difference is 3/4-fold.

Against different targets results will vary, but it does look like a Deimos fleet will blatantly stomp a Sac fleet in both close and long range fits. The much debated MWD role bonus really hurts missiles in this context.







.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2240 - 2013-08-20 09:36:17 UTC
Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but the Muninn is still ******* aweful. It hasn't got the alpha or dps it needs with armour, nor the mid slots for shield.

It needs an extra turret at the very least. The Deimos and ishtar walk all over this pos, how is this ok?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8