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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2181 - 2013-08-19 02:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
sten mattson wrote:
i dont know why people say that the zealot can brawl but not the muninn. they have both the same amount of mids, the muninn got moar tracking with ACs , capless, selectable damage type weapons , a utility high and a flight of light drones.
what does the zealot have? a slightly smaller resist hole and more range. thats it
i'd say its more the zealot that cant brawl and people just havent realized how good the muninn is at brawling

for starters it has 1 less low slot.
this means you end up with way worse resists with either same EHP and less DPS or same dps and a lot less ehp and EVEN worse resists.
this leads to it being about 30% weaker under reps with virtually identical fits
it's also slower, has worse range and relies on drones for 100 of its dps.

in any role other than a dedicated alpha fleet, it's total garbage.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2182 - 2013-08-19 03:58:49 UTC
Quote:
deimos needs to be a dedicated brawler, it's a gallente blaster boat for gods sake!


Deimos is a brawler. One of the best. Are you sure you're not looking at the old changes before they updated them?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2183 - 2013-08-19 04:12:21 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
deimos needs to be a dedicated brawler, it's a gallente blaster boat for gods sake!

Deimos is a brawler. One of the best. Are you sure you're not looking at the old changes before they updated them?

one of the best?
it's virtually unfittable and flat out worse than a brutix or myrm in every way. (let alone compared to something like a zealot...)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2184 - 2013-08-19 04:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
one of the best?
it's virtually unfittable and flat out worse than a brutix or myrm in every way. (let alone compared to something like a zealot...)


Huh? Deimos will fit ions with 800mm plate and a MAAR and a Microwarp drive. It can also do neutrons with dual rep. How are you having a hard time fitting it? Also, it'll solo a Brutix or Myrmidon with no trouble if you utilize the rep bonus.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#2185 - 2013-08-19 04:16:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
DEIMOS

For the Deimos we are bumping the speed up some more, lowering the Signature Radius slightly and of course adding the electronics and cap changes. We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M(+1), 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+40) / 2100(+60) / 2550(+19)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400(+25) / 225s (-110s) / 6.2/s (+2.1)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 270 / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150

Ummm. Was that a typo? You said you couldn't find anything decent to replace the MWD bonus... and then its replaced with a armor rep bonus. Or did I miss a post?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2186 - 2013-08-19 04:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
one of the best?
it's virtually unfittable and flat out worse than a brutix or myrm in every way. (let alone compared to something like a zealot...)

Huh? Deimos will fit ions with 800mm plate and a MAAR and a Microwarp drive. It can also do neutrons with dual rep. How are you having a hard time fitting it? Also, it'll solo a Brutix or Myrmidon with no trouble if you utilize the rep bonus.

you lost me at '800mm plate'.
sure, you can active rep it. then you can tank 1 other cruiser, barely. combined with the fleet boost nerf, it's going to be used even less.

what you cant do is buffer it properly, which is a FAR more common fit for any cruiser ever. seriously, an active rep bonus on any cruiser hull in the game should be accompanied with a troll face next to it.

PS: any solo active tank ship will always beat any non active tank ship in it's class (unless you are terrible). soooo not the point.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2187 - 2013-08-19 04:26:28 UTC
Quote:
Ummm. Was that a typo? You said you couldn't find anything decent to replace the MWD bonus... and then its replaced with a armor rep bonus. Or did I miss a post?


The intial change proposed in this thread was something entirely different. The originaly change had the Deimos getting its armor and hull nerfed by hundreds of points with a 190 boost to its base shield. People were very unhappy with that change. So, it was placed back into its role as a brawler and given the rep bonus.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2188 - 2013-08-19 04:29:18 UTC
Quote:
you lost me at '800mm plate'.
sure, you can active rep it. then you can tank 1 other cruiser, barely. combined with the fleet boost nerf, it's going to be used even less.

what you cant do is buffer it properly, which is a FAR more common fit for any cruiser ever. seriously, an active rep bonus on any cruiser hull in the game should be accompanied with a troll face next to it.

PS: any solo active tank ship will always beat any non active tank ship in it's class (unless you are terrible). soooo not the point.


Dude, go fly it. Seriously. It will tank MUCH more than you seem to think it will. You really need to go see it in practice before you knock it. It has no trouble at all tanking a whole lot more firepower than one cruiser. People were just complaining a few pages back about how it's now OP because it can actually rep through 1000 dps with one particular fit.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#2189 - 2013-08-19 04:41:12 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Ummm. Was that a typo? You said you couldn't find anything decent to replace the MWD bonus... and then its replaced with a armor rep bonus. Or did I miss a post?


The intial change proposed in this thread was something entirely different. The originaly change had the Deimos getting its armor and hull nerfed by hundreds of points with a 190 boost to its base shield. People were very unhappy with that change. So, it was placed back into its role as a brawler and given the rep bonus.

They should probably change the description then so others who haven't kept up with this thread from the start don't get confused.

Also, shouldn't the Deimos then receive a significant buff to its cap? (more so than the general buff being given to the HACs) as it's losing the MWD cap bonus and gaining an active armor bonus? Or is the additional mid now a compulsory cap booster slot? (I was really excited about the increased versatility of a 4th mid but I guess that won't be the case now).
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2190 - 2013-08-19 04:44:08 UTC
Quote:
Also, shouldn't the Deimos then receive a significant buff to its cap? (more so than the general buff being given to the HACs) as it's losing the MWD cap bonus and gaining an active armor bonus? Or is the additional mid now a compulsory cap booster slot? (I was really excited about the increased versatility of a 4th mid but I guess that won't be the case now).


If you're active repping, then yeah. That 4th mid is pretty much going to be a cap booster. If you're buffer fitting and going to have logi, you can do e-war. But, for small gang sans logi, that cap booster/MAAR combo works very nicely.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2191 - 2013-08-19 05:11:52 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
one of the best?
it's virtually unfittable and flat out worse than a brutix or myrm in every way. (let alone compared to something like a zealot...)

Huh? Deimos will fit ions with 800mm plate and a MAAR and a Microwarp drive. It can also do neutrons with dual rep. How are you having a hard time fitting it? Also, it'll solo a Brutix or Myrmidon with no trouble if you utilize the rep bonus.

you lost me at '800mm plate'.
sure, you can active rep it. then you can tank 1 other cruiser, barely. combined with the fleet boost nerf, it's going to be used even less.

what you cant do is buffer it properly, which is a FAR more common fit for any cruiser ever. seriously, an active rep bonus on any cruiser hull in the game should be accompanied with a troll face next to it.

PS: any solo active tank ship will always beat any non active tank ship in it's class (unless you are terrible). soooo not the point.


You get 20k ehp, 1k dps tank preheat, 600dps and good speed/agility without any links or implants out of a dualrep version.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2192 - 2013-08-19 06:28:55 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
deimos needs to be a dedicated brawler, it's a gallente blaster boat for gods sake!

Deimos is a brawler. One of the best. Are you sure you're not looking at the old changes before they updated them?

one of the best?
it's virtually unfittable and flat out worse than a brutix or myrm in every way. (let alone compared to something like a zealot...)



You know, HACs are revamped. That statement is clearly based on 1.0 stats, else it would be pretty wrong. (There are more stickies about other impacting changes, also linked rep-amount won't significantly change)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2193 - 2013-08-19 07:08:25 UTC
There seems to be a lot of uninformed whining on this forum by people who have clearly not tried these ships out on the test server.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2194 - 2013-08-19 07:15:40 UTC
Quote:
There seems to be a lot of uninformed whining on this forum by people who have clearly not tried these ships out on the test server.


I know, right? Now, if they'd just update my skills so I can try out some more stuff on Sisi... Lol
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2195 - 2013-08-19 07:18:24 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
There seems to be a lot of uninformed whining on this forum by people who have clearly not tried these ships out on the test server.


I know, right? Now, if they'd just update my skills so I can try out some more stuff on Sisi... Lol


Smile trust me, when you get into these ships you will fall in love with them.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#2196 - 2013-08-19 07:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Also, shouldn't the Deimos then receive a significant buff to its cap? (more so than the general buff being given to the HACs) as it's losing the MWD cap bonus and gaining an active armor bonus? Or is the additional mid now a compulsory cap booster slot? (I was really excited about the increased versatility of a 4th mid but I guess that won't be the case now).


If you're active repping, then yeah. That 4th mid is pretty much going to be a cap booster. If you're buffer fitting and going to have logi, you can do e-war. But, for small gang sans logi, that cap booster/MAAR combo works very nicely.
I think if this is the path for the Deimos and CCP rise is serious about revamping the Deimos, it would be better served with a tracking bonus like the Thorax instead of the falloff bonus. This would help running a dual rep, dual prop deimos (kind of like the standard/old brawling SFI fit).

If you want to keep the Will-Adama-esque shield anti-support deimos, I'd leave the MWD bonus as the speed/agility buff, the extra cap and the extra mid already buff that style of Deimos play to be on-par with the other HACs.



On another subject, I'm rather unimpressed by the Zealot. I feel it will become the rifter of the HAC revamp. Give it a 25m drone bay please.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2197 - 2013-08-19 08:01:24 UTC
Quote:
I think if this is the path for the Deimos, it would be better served with a tracking bonus like the Thorax instead of the falloff bonus. This would help running a dual rep, dual prop deimos (kind of like the standard/old brawling SFI fit).


I'm really torn on that. I know some people want to kite with the Deimos, so the falloff helps there. It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see it go full on brawler with a tracking bonus, but I think the falloff bonus keeps the rail option viable.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2198 - 2013-08-19 08:55:10 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Also, shouldn't the Deimos then receive a significant buff to its cap? (more so than the general buff being given to the HACs) as it's losing the MWD cap bonus and gaining an active armor bonus? Or is the additional mid now a compulsory cap booster slot? (I was really excited about the increased versatility of a 4th mid but I guess that won't be the case now).

If you're active repping, then yeah. That 4th mid is pretty much going to be a cap booster. If you're buffer fitting and going to have logi, you can do e-war. But, for small gang sans logi, that cap booster/MAAR combo works very nicely.

You are doing it wrong, dual-rep has not been necessary on rep bonused hulls after the AAR introduction, plate+MAAR is what you want.

Deimos capacitor is as (if not more) powerful than the TQ Sacrilege so you only need to inject if your cap is alpha'ed or when up against a multi-neut medium neut hull of which there are none .. single medium neut ships won't live long enough for the neut to do its job, it is strong enough to effectively shrug at heavy neuts all you might need is a small injector with 400's which just happens to be pretty damn near the recharge sweet spot on a cruiser.
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
...On another subject, I'm rather unimpressed by the Zealot. I feel it will become the rifter of the HAC revamp. Give it a 25m drone bay please.

It is unchanged because of Scorch I reckon, works so well in swarms with that lens type that it is considered good while all others are getting buffed to function in and out of swarms.
Adding a flight of light drones is a crutch move, like wanting covops on something broken thinking it will help. Between AARs and ASBs a flight of damage drones is no threat to frigates, sensor strengths have gone up with new skills and implants so ec300s will be pointless .. so what would be the purpose of that flight?

It needs what all laser boats needs: Tracking.

Introduce the 3rd pulses (M/L Gatlings) or do a combo bonus similar to what has been done for drones with +5% optimal/+5% tracking, trading some of the range for actually being able to apply damage inside web range.

Won't happen of course, because Amarr is not meant to be solo/small-gang viable until sometime after 2016 to give Gallente lovers enough time to harvest tears from us Big smile
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2199 - 2013-08-19 09:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
You are doing it wrong, dual-rep has not been necessary on rep bonused hulls after the AAR introduction, plate+MAAR is what you want.


You haven't read the thread, obviously, or you'd know that the cap boosted MAAR setup I'm referring to is the 800mm plate setup. I've been the one arguing AGAINST the dual rep option. I'm not really sure where you got that I'm promoting dual reps. Dual rep isn't mentioned anywhere in what you quoted.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2200 - 2013-08-19 09:22:53 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
You are doing it wrong, dual-rep has not been necessary on rep bonused hulls after the AAR introduction, plate+MAAR is what you want.


You haven't read the thread, obviously, or you'd know that the cap boosted MAAR setup I'm referring to is the 800mm plate setup. I've been the one arguing AGAINST the dual rep option. I'm not really sure where you got that I'm promoting dual reps. Dual rep isn't mentioned anywhere in what you quoted.


And you still havnt replied to the statement that dualrep is better after 23 seconds and that this means the usual buffer doesnt count.