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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Author
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2121 - 2013-08-16 14:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Deacon Abox wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
. . . OMG great changes, esspecially the changes to the Cerberus

Yeah, you noticed it too. Straight

Welcome to the shift from Drakes Online to Cerbs Online.Ugh


MWD Cap Stable, and 38km HAMs dealing 700dps!!!
OMFG loving that ccp is showing most of the caldari missile boats some love with the reworks!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2122 - 2013-08-16 14:56:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Earlier in the thread someone posted a fit for a single rep deimos with 800 plate.

I was sceptical as to whether it would work so I tried it.

In this case, I took out 4000 rounds of ammo and 23 navy 400 cap boosters.
After scoring 5 or so kills, some solo some not, I returned to the station with no ammo left and... 22 cap boosters (20 in the hold, 2 in the medium capacitor booster module).

I can understand people's disbelief because of the utter sh*tness of previous armour tanking hulls. But we are in a new ere here, and it's a good one Smile

Congratulations, you have just graduated from the Amarr School of Optimal Mid Use .. now go out and use that mid for something useful and then join me in the call to nerf the Deimos capacitor so that it is no longer possible .. a free mid on top of performance = breakage Big smile

Besides, it has almost same capacitor performance as the Sacrilege which is just naff .. or has that 6.66 not been updated properly?

Beauty of the Plate+MAAR solution, beyond saving the mid, is that it gives you a much stronger alpha resistance and with some maneuvering allow you to more easily survive the MAAR reload .. plus with one less active mod in the rack the MAAR can be heated far longer.

On a related note: In the repair thread (or was it this one?) there was a suggestion to change the Gallente repair amount bonus to a cycle time bonus to first weaken the mad cap they all now possess and second to make it bursty which is more in line with the "step on his foot and headbutt him repeatedly" doctrine of blaster warfare.
Which brings me to: Minmatar and Caldari share the shield rep bonus, but Amarr does not share the armour ditto with Gallente .. why?
Would be a pretty nifty racial distinction if for instance Gallente had cycle time and the mid deficient Amarr an amount bonus (to maximize cap) .. obviously won't work with shields due to shorter cycles but should work for armour.

In short: Buffer tanking is so last decade give everyone active options!
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2123 - 2013-08-16 15:09:35 UTC
hmm. I wouldn't ever fly pvp in a gallante or amarr ship without a cap booster. one heavy neut and you'll know you need it.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#2124 - 2013-08-16 15:19:29 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:
I wish CCP Dev team will get same approach with medical treatment from doctors as they use while balancing/patching ships...

6-8 weeks of probing before being told there's no cure and kicking them back out into the world... only this time every looks at them differently?

More like trying to cure regular flue by simply cutting one kidney off rest of the buddy but forgetting to take it out before sewing.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2125 - 2013-08-16 16:16:22 UTC
Why are half the posters in this forum so negative? I have not seen a single HAC nerfed in this update. They're all very much better than before and finally worth spending money on. I'd happily part with cash for any one of them, and I would not turn a single one away from my skirmish fleet.

CCP have done a Good Thing (tm). They don't always do that, and we would be wise to encourage and praise these Good Things so that the development team is more inclined to listen enthusiastically when we constructively criticize.

So far this year we've had:

Navy cruisers: good
Battlecruiser updates: good for some (not gallente) - overall OK
Navy Battlecruisers: looking good on killmails :-)
Navy Battleships: good
Hacking game: utter crap but some people seem to like it.
frigates: now actually good for something
local tank improvement: finally viable - good!
Command Ships: I have my doubts about the gallente ones but they are definitely better than before - i.e. GOOD!

i.e. overwhelmingly good!

Guys, the devs are human. They need encouragment and praise. The more you praise, the more your criticism will stand out when it happens and the more inclined they will be to listen.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2126 - 2013-08-16 16:20:34 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why are half the posters in this forum so negative? I have not seen a single HAC nerfed in this update. They're all very much better than before and finally worth spending money on. I'd happily part with cash for any one of them, and I would not turn a single one away from my skirmish fleet.

CCP have done a Good Thing (tm). They don't always do that, and we would be wise to encourage and praise these Good Things so that the development team is more inclined to listen enthusiastically when we constructively criticize.

So far this year we've had:

Navy cruisers: good
Battlecruiser updates: good for some (not gallente) - overall OK
Navy Battlecruisers: looking good on killmails :-)
Navy Battleships: good
Hacking game: utter crap but some people seem to like it.
frigates: now actually good for something
local tank improvement: finally viable - good!
Command Ships: I have my doubts about the gallente ones but they are definitely better than before - i.e. GOOD!

i.e. overwhelmingly good!

Guys, the devs are human. They need encouragment and praise. The more you praise, the more your criticism will stand out when it happens and the more inclined they will be to listen.


Complaining about free stuff (like game balance tweaking and the updating of ships that previously didn't get use much but are now every popular like tech 1 cruisers) is base human nature. People just basically suck..
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2127 - 2013-08-16 16:23:45 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.

Reading on my phone and I see this and think, this has to come from w0lf, and yup it did. The cynabal is way OP. All pirate ships should end up somewhere between the Phantasm and the Vigilant in terms of power.


Phantasm. Vigilant. In between. That's a boatload of empty space :|

And in a time of NOmens and basically every t1 cruiser on it's own nearly matching it in key attributes really did put an end to a cyna-vaga-only era. It's nice that it's a dramiel with med. Guns and cruisertank... but still t1-cruisertank. Usually a significant part of your dps comes from your drones, which speaks a lot for itself regarding a 50m³ unbonused dronebay.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2128 - 2013-08-16 16:35:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why are half the posters in this forum so negative? I have not seen a single HAC nerfed in this update. They're all very much better than before and finally worth spending money on. I'd happily part with cash for any one of them, and I would not turn a single one away from my skirmish fleet.

CCP have done a Good Thing (tm). They don't always do that, and we would be wise to encourage and praise these Good Things so that the development team is more inclined to listen enthusiastically when we constructively criticize.

So far this year we've had:

Navy cruisers: good
Battlecruiser updates: good for some (not gallente) - overall OK
Navy Battlecruisers: looking good on killmails :-)
Navy Battleships: good
Hacking game: utter crap but some people seem to like it.
frigates: now actually good for something
local tank improvement: finally viable - good!
Command Ships: I have my doubts about the gallente ones but they are definitely better than before - i.e. GOOD!

i.e. overwhelmingly good!

Guys, the devs are human. They need encouragment and praise. The more you praise, the more your criticism will stand out when it happens and the more inclined they will be to listen.


Complaining about free stuff (like game balance tweaking and the updating of ships that previously didn't get use much but are now every popular like tech 1 cruisers) is base human nature. People just basically suck..


Certainly humans are naturally irrational in the main, and rationality needs to be trained.

So here it is: To be completely selfish about it, it's in our best interests if the devs like our company and enjoy listening to us. So let's make their day enjoyable, because then they'll be inclined to give us the things we need to enjoy our game.

How about that?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2129 - 2013-08-16 18:33:09 UTC
What happens is that CCP is not able to balance at once anything because they probably dont know the game from the player perspective. They might play but it's like they have a 1 year character (with the proper attitude).

So when it comes to balance, by changing something in the game they destroy something else. And CCP does this by trial and error. First try is to see (real) players' reaction, doing some changing, test server, do some changes, apply to game... changes after a year or so.

Now as it was quite difficult to justify t1 cruiser massive boost, CCP is trying to impress with sometimes good changes and sometimes no changes at HACS. Some were needing a boost before the cruiser boost but now obviously ALL need a boost.

But not all are getting one.

After some time that the excitement from the changes will pass only the ships that were really benefited will play.

Probably ishtar and cerb will be the most used hacs now.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2130 - 2013-08-16 18:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Romar Thel wrote:
What happens is that CCP is not able to balance at once anything because they probably dont know the game from the player perspective. They might play but it's like they have a 1 year character (with the proper attitude).

So when it comes to balance, by changing something in the game they destroy something else. And CCP does this by trial and error. First try is to see (real) players' reaction, doing some changing, test server, do some changes, apply to game... changes after a year or so.

Now as it was quite difficult to justify t1 cruiser massive boost, CCP is trying to impress with sometimes good changes and sometimes no changes at HACS. Some were needing a boost before the cruiser boost but now obviously ALL need a boost.

But not all are getting one.

After some time that the excitement from the changes will pass only the ships that were really benefited will play.

Probably ishtar and cerb will be the most used hacs now.

You do realize that the devs on the balancing team are highly experienced combat pilots, right?

Now there is truth that there is a cycle of "initial change, feed back, 2nd pass, feed back, released for wide spread use, feed back, iteration" going on.

This is exactly what the player base has been begging CCP to do for years.

You kind of sound like you are one of those folks that somehow think a nice boost to HAM range on a Sac is useless. Big smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2131 - 2013-08-16 18:44:19 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

You do realize that the devs on the balancing team are highly experienced combat pilots, right?
Big smileBig smileBig smile


I really dont...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2132 - 2013-08-16 18:44:58 UTC
Romar Thel wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

You do realize that the devs on the balancing team are highly experienced combat pilots, right?
Big smileBig smileBig smile


I really dont...

Now you do. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2133 - 2013-08-16 18:49:02 UTC
"highly experienced combat pilots" that for example didnt see any problem in ishtar's fitting when the rest of eve was shouting.

If you ever used one, you would know.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2134 - 2013-08-16 18:57:09 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.

Reading on my phone and I see this and think, this has to come from w0lf, and yup it did. The cynabal is way OP. All pirate ships should end up somewhere between the Phantasm and the Vigilant in terms of power.


Phantasm. Vigilant. In between. That's a boatload of empty space :|

And in a time of NOmens and basically every t1 cruiser on it's own nearly matching it in key attributes really did put an end to a cyna-vaga-only era. It's nice that it's a dramiel with med. Guns and cruisertank... but still t1-cruisertank. Usually a significant part of your dps comes from your drones, which speaks a lot for itself regarding a 50m³ unbonused dronebay.


Pretty much this, AC kiting hasn't been amazing for a while, then Tier 3s turned up, then everything go buffed around it, and then they put the TE nerf in.

There are so many better platforms for this sort of thing now, they need to be tuned up or the Vaga will be nothing more than heavy tackle and the Cyna will be, well, a mediocre brawler/kiter with good disengagement options.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2135 - 2013-08-16 19:00:24 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
Probably ishtar and cerb will be the most used hacs now.

You do realize that the devs on the balancing team are highly experienced combat pilots, right?

Now there is truth that there is a cycle of "initial change, feed back, 2nd pass, feed back, released for wide spread use, feed back, iteration" going on.

This is exactly what the player base has been begging CCP to do for years.

You kind of sound like you are one of those folks that somehow think a nice boost to HAM range on a Sac is useless. Big smileBig smileBig smile

I decided to view your post, as whatever argument I had with you before and caused me to block seeing your posts has worn off.

So, in response to your last sentence. I would say yes. That Sac, and it's slightly improved range, will be useless with the first Cerb it runs into. Or more precisely, can't put it's missiles into.

I do agree with your comment that the cycle they are engaging in is more responsive than it used to be. Drakes Online lasted 3 years. Cerbs Online hopefully won't last anywhere near as long. Unfortunately we will still be treated to Cerbs Online.Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Kane Fenris
NWP
#2136 - 2013-08-16 22:36:12 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


+1
vaga with new asb bonus suffers from its unchanged cargo too


Nope, not really, if you get 3 relaods off then youll be in trouble. But i doubt you will in a single fights.


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.


uhm yeah ... so when i kill someone and want to loot some stuff ill need to throw out stuff?
and why you asume youll only get 1 fight? stocking up in null isnt easy...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2137 - 2013-08-16 23:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Deacon Abox wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
Probably ishtar and cerb will be the most used hacs now.

You do realize that the devs on the balancing team are highly experienced combat pilots, right?

Now there is truth that there is a cycle of "initial change, feed back, 2nd pass, feed back, released for wide spread use, feed back, iteration" going on.

This is exactly what the player base has been begging CCP to do for years.

You kind of sound like you are one of those folks that somehow think a nice boost to HAM range on a Sac is useless. Big smileBig smileBig smile

I decided to view your post, as whatever argument I had with you before and caused me to block seeing your posts has worn off.

So, in response to your last sentence. I would say yes. That Sac, and it's slightly improved range, will be useless with the first Cerb it runs into. Or more precisely, can't put it's missiles into.

I do agree with your comment that the cycle they are engaging in is more responsive than it used to be. Drakes Online lasted 3 years. Cerbs Online hopefully won't last anywhere near as long. Unfortunately we will still be treated to Cerbs Online.Ugh

Fair enough.

I'll certainly agree that a hard hitting sniper from extreme range is dangerous, but not just vs the Sac. Few ships will be able to reach out and touch a well fit Cerb.

That being said, in that situation the Sac can warp out and reposition just like every other ship, with little fear of being alpha'd while doing so.

One of the main problem for the Sac has been surviving long enough to get into position to do damage, or getting into range even if in no danger of dying. The extra range will certainly help with that against most opponents it will be facing.

If I were wanting a tweak I'd actually rather have a bit more speed, but that's just me.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2138 - 2013-08-17 01:59:28 UTC
I just wanted to add a little to Ranger's comment.

Yes, the cerberus has the best range. Yes the deimos has the most brawling power, the vaga is the fastest and best at dictating range... and so on.

This is as it should be, because if all ships could compete in the same environment equally well, there'd be no need for a choice of ships - we'd all just fly a gnosis for everything (or god forbid, a pre-nerf uber-drake).

So I personally am glad that my blaster deimos cannot touch a cerberus, and can't catch a vaga. It's good that a vaga must avoid getting into scram range at all costs, and good that a cerberus will want to work hard at keeping his range advantage. It means I've got to use my head and make sure my fleet has enough fast ships, enough ranged dps and enough brawlers to meet whatever it finds. And when I don't have exactly what I need (i.e. always) I have to use my head again, bounce off planets, tactically retreat, feint and parry until I get my enemy where I want him.

This adds a tactical dimension to the game that is was probably lacking previously. It's a good thing.

Tactics will change. And again, that's a good thing. The previous tactics were based around a broken game. No doubt vagabond, hurricane and cynabal pilots have had things a little too easy for too long, and no doubt there was little challenge for them. Now we'll have to develop new tactics around a more balanced (but certainly not equal) game.

I'm very pleased by this. It makes me feel as if my subscription is being well spent and I am getting good value.

A final word on the Vaga, because I know that many people will feel the pain of it not being quite as OP as it was, just like the drake crowd did. I fought one on Sisi. I was was in a deimos. Eventually I was able to slingshot and catch it. I assumed that it would be an easy kill... but guess what? I was surprised to find that not only could it move fast, it could also tank, at least for a while.

So now I know when and if I scram a vaga, it's not over. He still has time to call in help. PVP is going to be more exciting, more likely to escalate, better.

I think we should all be happy about that.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2139 - 2013-08-17 05:15:04 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


+1
vaga with new asb bonus suffers from its unchanged cargo too


Nope, not really, if you get 3 relaods off then youll be in trouble. But i doubt you will in a single fights.


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.


uhm yeah ... so when i kill someone and want to loot some stuff ill need to throw out stuff?
and why you asume youll only get 1 fight? stocking up in null isnt easy...


You actually loot non faction crap? O.o
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2140 - 2013-08-17 06:43:24 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

You actually loot non faction crap? O.o

yup we do , cause we are good at pvp not like you :)
go post some more whines why the vaga is weak and the cynabal needs buffs...