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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2101 - 2013-08-15 21:23:31 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Because we all fly with a $15/month alt in skirmish links. Like i said earlier, not everyone can/is willing to pay for a booster alt, so arguing "this ship is so great, you only have to spend 1.5b on a ship for your alt and its implants!" is invalid.


/facepalm
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2102 - 2013-08-15 21:49:01 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


+1
vaga with new asb bonus suffers from its unchanged cargo too
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2103 - 2013-08-15 22:00:10 UTC
Take out the bonus and you dont even need to change the cargo...

Instead of improving the ship, you add a bonus that only applies to a "special" solo fitting.

And by nerfing the cynabal, vagabond wont become better..
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2104 - 2013-08-15 23:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Kane Fenris wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


+1
vaga with new asb bonus suffers from its unchanged cargo too


Nope, not really, if you get 3 relaods off then youll be in trouble. But i doubt you will in a single fights.


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2105 - 2013-08-16 01:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Devon Weeks wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


Whah? Are you using navy 400s? That's really all you need, and I am able to fit 21 of them easily with plenty of room left for nanite paste and ammo.


Dual rep doesn't run on 400's. There's also this thing in the game called neutralizers.

The Sac gets far more cargohold, yet has capless weapons, no rep bonus and a much stronger capacitor. I really don't understand how they pick cargohold size other than 'let's make it hard to do what it's supposed to do'. Big cargoholds don't break the game.

Vaga cargohold is fine if you use an asb, which you probably will, but if you use a regular booster+800s, it's not great.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2106 - 2013-08-16 02:18:35 UTC
Quote:
Dual rep doesn't run on 400's. There's also this thing in the game called neutralizers.The Sac gets far more cargohold, yet has capless weapons, no rep bonus and a much stronger capacitor. I really don't understand how they pick cargohold size other than 'let's make it hard to do what it's supposed to do'. Big cargoholds don't break the game.Vaga cargohold is fine if you use an asb, which you probably will, but if you use a regular booster+800s, it's not great.


First, not everyone is running dual rep. I've had great success with just the MAAR and plate. That will run just fine under neuts, as I stated earlier in the thread, but I guess you haven't been keeping up or you'd know that.

Some people are arguing that the Deimos having a 1000 dps tank is OP. It doesn't really need it, but even if it is OP, not having room for reload after reload of 800s is a pretty good balance to me. Just go try it with the 800mm plate and MAAR against non-stupified targets on the test server (meaning those running setups they'd never dream of fielding on Tranquility). You'll be pleasantly surprised. Sure, the dual rep option expands its engagement profile, but you really shouldn't be trying to solo Vindicators and Bhaalgorns anyway (not that I don't try for fun).
Xorionna
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2107 - 2013-08-16 02:35:30 UTC
106 pages, i didnt read all that.

some newb question if you don't mind :
are the HAC get more sensor strength than the recon ships with this change ? I don't see the logic in that.
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2108 - 2013-08-16 02:37:17 UTC
Xorionna wrote:
106 pages, i didnt read all that.

some newb question if you don't mind :
are the HAC get more sensor strength than the recon ships with this change ? I don't see the logic in that.


No. With +7 a Sacrilege is 22. Curse is 28.(without sensor strength skills)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2109 - 2013-08-16 04:17:32 UTC
Xorionna wrote:
106 pages, i didnt read all that.

some newb question if you don't mind :
are the HAC get more sensor strength than the recon ships with this change ? I don't see the logic in that.

who cares
nobody will use ecm anyway
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2110 - 2013-08-16 07:21:40 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
galessin wrote:
ishtar has 3 useables bonus at the same time, all others HAC have 4.... something seems to be wrong...Roll


Lazor weapon cap use anyone? Welcome to eve on hard mode


You can complain about that when scorch isn't amazing.

I can complain all I want as long as lasers are the Emperor of Man and Scorch is the Golden Throne.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2111 - 2013-08-16 07:30:36 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
... I had to blap his ec-600 drones quickly in order to keep a scram on him and dictate range. At 8.5km the zealot was in optimal for conflagration. the deimos's damage was very reduced
...
I think the deimos is a powerful, strong ship able to hold a point for a long time but I don't think it's OP.

Bit of a flawed assessment if made on a dilettantes use of it if you ask me, sounds like he wanted to test the tanking potential more than anything else and still won even after being noobish enough to throw away 150+ dps on the off chance of getting a drone jam on a now BS strength sensor cluster.
Besides, the generic dual rep Deimos will not make it to TQ as those fits are highly ineffective (dps/tank ratio way off) which means you are more likely to run into twin webs, TDs, TCs, DP and what not with tank made up of a plate+AAR duo of some sort any of which will shred a Zealot regardless of fit or pilot expertise.
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Anyone have any comments about the Sacrilege changes? Most of the recent discussion seems to be about the Deimos, Vagabond and Eagle.

In practice, it's doing quite well! I've seen one particularly skilled pilot show its mettle in a straight brawl with two Deimoses where he basically permatanked their damage. The match was more or less a stalemate, but I'd give the win to the Sac for lasting through it with full tank even though no ships died.

All that shows is that people have to have time to get reacquainted with flying active tank blaster cruisers. The described fight does not show the one change made to the Sacrilege which is the useless range bonus .. cap was rolled into hull + a smidgen but otherwise the same.
With no actual changes made and the ship hitting like the same redheaded girl (albeit a robust one) it has always been, giving it default victory is folly. Now if the useless PvE centric (hull to slow for proper kiting) range bonus was something useful like application (exp. velocity), raw dps (damage) or neuting power you would have a case but Sacrilege is for all intents and purposes the exact same ship as current live.

Make it as good a brawler as the Cerberus is a LR spammer by one of above bonus changes or move the utility high to lows to at least give the option of going gank without giving up all tank .. but I suppose one could do an ASB fit in that case. Perhaps that is what the Devs want it to do in the future, abuse the broken one while spamming HMLs from the edge of the fight with speed/dmg in lows.
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Regardless of whether or not this is true now, it is CCP's stated goal that links will be brought on grid. I certainly don't see links being used on HACs 90+% of the time once that is true, so it's perfectly reasonable to evaluate them without links.

Not really. PLEX system allows you to trade activity for $/month which is what most do, Devs are reluctant to give them a pew timer on link activation so a neutral link ship on gate/station will be the new black and even if Devs give them the timer the CC tanks are far superior to anything a small gang can throw out in the 60s before he jumps .. you'll need a bat-phone to clear "solo'ers" links or avoid fights on stations/gates.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2112 - 2013-08-16 07:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Not really. PLEX system allows you to trade activity for $/month which is what most do, Devs are reluctant to give them a pew timer on link activation so a neutral link ship on gate/station will be the new black and even if Devs give them the timer the CC tanks are far superior to anything a small gang can throw out in the 60s before he jumps .. you'll need a bat-phone to clear "solo'ers" links or avoid fights on stations/gates.


I don't think most of us count griefer corps with neutral logis and boosters as being the mainstay of the game. Null sec or wormhole space are really where we'll see these boosting ships effected in a major way. In those environments, it's very important to evaluate these HAC changes without links since your FCs might become much more reluctant to field them if they have to stick around for the duration of the fights.

Quote:
Besides, the generic dual rep Deimos will not make it to TQ as those fits are highly ineffective (dps/tank ratio way off) which means you are more likely to run into twin webs, TDs, TCs, DP and what not with tank made up of a plate+AAR duo of some sort any of which will shred a Zealot regardless of fit or pilot expertise.


Yes! I've been trying to convince people of the merits of the plate+AAR setup for a couple of days, but people really seem to be hung up on this dual rep idea. I was initially running the Deimos with a cap booster in the fourth mid for neut protection, but I've since started trying it with the TC and find it to be a very effective setup.
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2113 - 2013-08-16 07:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ArcticPrism
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Quote:
Anyone have any comments about the Sacrilege changes? Most of the recent discussion seems to be about the Deimos, Vagabond and Eagle.

In practice, it's doing quite well! I've seen one particularly skilled pilot show its mettle in a straight brawl with two Deimoses where he basically permatanked their damage. The match was more or less a stalemate, but I'd give the win to the Sac for lasting through it with full tank even though no ships died.

All that shows is that people have to have time to get reacquainted with flying active tank blaster cruisers. The described fight does not show the one change made to the Sacrilege which is the useless range bonus .. cap was rolled into hull + a smidgen but otherwise the same.
With no actual changes made and the ship hitting like the same redheaded girl (albeit a robust one) it has always been, giving it default victory is folly. Now if the useless PvE centric (hull to slow for proper kiting) range bonus was something useful like application (exp. velocity), raw dps (damage) or neuting power you would have a case but Sacrilege is for all intents and purposes the exact same ship as current live.

Make it as good a brawler as the Cerberus is a LR spammer by one of above bonus changes or move the utility high to lows to at least give the option of going gank without giving up all tank .. but I suppose one could do an ASB fit in that case. Perhaps that is what the Devs want it to do in the future, abuse the broken one while spamming HMLs from the edge of the fight with speed/dmg in lows.


That's what I was thinking about. I've seen a few posts about how amazing the new Sacrilege is but I think the list of changes to it is just having a placebo kind of effect on people. The ship has hardly changed but it's good now somehow. A neut/nos strength bonus would be pretty cool in place of the missile range if Rise is going to be adamant about the ship having a utility high. Otherwise I'd really like a 6th low slot on the ship so you can more optimally fit tank/gank.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2114 - 2013-08-16 09:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
SACRILEGE

We wanted to get rid of the cap recharge bonus, as it is both kind of dated and strange, and also doesn't do much for a ship that doesn't even use cap for its main weapon system. We played with a lot of options but ultimately settled on a Missile Velocity bonus which should be very helpful in projecting some of that HAM damage. Other changes include tweaks to fitting, slightly lowered Signature radius, and of course the electronics changes. While we did not role the entire benefit of the former cap recharge bonus into the base stats, the Sacrilege does retain the highest cap/second of any Heavy Assault Cruisers.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (added heavy missiles)
4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 1 turrets(-3), 5 launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.8)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+2) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)

ZEALOT

No big changes here other than the electronics and cap changes.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125

=============================================================================

CERBERUS

In the first iteration we didn't quite go far enough with the Cerb in terms of power. In this pass we are going further to support its role as both a long range missile platform and a potential skirmisher by increasing its speed significantly and also adding more fitting to make fielding the extra launcher more comfortable. The change to cap recharge should go a long way to help the Cerb.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Missile flight time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 800 PWG(+165), 520 CPU(+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2000(-4) / 1200(+4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1200(+137.5) / 235s (-100s) / 5.1/s (+1.93)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+45) / .463 / 12720000 / 8.17s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+15) / 15(+15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+15km) / 282 / 6
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric(+8)
Signature radius: 135

EAGLE

For the Eagle there aren't huge changes. Along with the electronics and cap changes we are going to speed it up slightly, lower the signature radius by 10 and make some small adjustments to the fitting so that fitting rails is a little easier.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 990 PWG(+115), 440 CPU(+2)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1350(-25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.29/s (+1.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 180(+16) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+20km) / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 25 Gravimetric(+7)
Signature radius: 140(-10)

OMG great changes, esspecially the changes to the cerberus

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#2115 - 2013-08-16 10:27:09 UTC
I wish CCP Dev team will get same approach with medical treatment from doctors as they use while balancing/patching ships...
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#2116 - 2013-08-16 10:46:46 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Also i agree, the cyna shouldnt get nerfed, it if anything needs a buff (double faloff bonus too), the times when it was op was before t1 cruiser and navy cruiser revamp. It right now is ok.

Reading on my phone and I see this and think, this has to come from w0lf, and yup it did. The cynabal is way OP. All pirate ships should end up somewhere between the Phantasm and the Vigilant in terms of power.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2117 - 2013-08-16 12:31:12 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
I wish CCP Dev team will get same approach with medical treatment from doctors as they use while balancing/patching ships...

6-8 weeks of probing before being told there's no cure and kicking them back out into the world... only this time every looks at them differently?
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2118 - 2013-08-16 12:54:00 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
. . . OMG great changes, esspecially the changes to the Cerberus

Yeah, you noticed it too. Straight

Welcome to the shift from Drakes Online to Cerbs Online.Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2119 - 2013-08-16 13:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Akturous wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


Whah? Are you using navy 400s? That's really all you need, and I am able to fit 21 of them easily with plenty of room left for nanite paste and ammo.


Dual rep doesn't run on 400's. There's also this thing in the game called neutralizers.

The Sac gets far more cargohold, yet has capless weapons, no rep bonus and a much stronger capacitor. I really don't understand how they pick cargohold size other than 'let's make it hard to do what it's supposed to do'. Big cargoholds don't break the game.

Vaga cargohold is fine if you use an asb, which you probably will, but if you use a regular booster+800s, it's not great.


Earlier in the thread someone posted a fit for a single rep deimos with 800 plate.

I was sceptical as to whether it would work so I tried it.

In this case, I took out 4000 rounds of ammo and 23 navy 400 cap boosters.
After scoring 5 or so kills, some solo some not, I returned to the station with no ammo left and... 22 cap boosters (20 in the hold, 2 in the medium capacitor booster module).

I can understand people's disbelief because of the utter sh*tness of previous armour tanking hulls. But we are in a new ere here, and it's a good one Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2120 - 2013-08-16 13:59:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Seriously Fozzie, cargo hold on the deimos, 315 on an active tanker? That's 11 cap boosters if you want minimal ammo, seriously mate, cargo holds on all these ships are way over the shop, cmd ships as well. Some space please.


Whah? Are you using navy 400s? That's really all you need, and I am able to fit 21 of them easily with plenty of room left for nanite paste and ammo.


Dual rep doesn't run on 400's. There's also this thing in the game called neutralizers.

The Sac gets far more cargohold, yet has capless weapons, no rep bonus and a much stronger capacitor. I really don't understand how they pick cargohold size other than 'let's make it hard to do what it's supposed to do'. Big cargoholds don't break the game.

Vaga cargohold is fine if you use an asb, which you probably will, but if you use a regular booster+800s, it's not great.


Earlier in the thread someone posted a fit for a single rep deimos with 800 plate.

I was sceptical as to whether it would work so I tried it.

In this case, I took out 4000 rounds of ammo and 23 navy 400 cap boosters.
After scoring 5 or so kills, some solo some not, I returned to the station with no ammo left and... 22 cap boosters (20 in the hold, 2 in the medium capacitor booster module).

I can understand people's disbelief because of the utter sh*tness of previous armour tanking hulls. But we are in a new ere here, and it's a good one Smile


Welcome to the new era, my friend! Big smile