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Log-in traps: Something to address?

Author
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#41 - 2013-08-14 21:12:16 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:
Phaade wrote:


I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.

I do wish local did not exist though.



If local did not exist then you'd have no idea between this and people hanging out around 14.5 AU away.


Valid point, though I would be able to detect them on D-scan while in warp, and the warp is most likely longer than the current log-in warp.

At that point, it wouldn't be an exploitation of mechanics either, so I'd be happy.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#42 - 2013-08-14 21:19:43 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:
ShadowandLight wrote:
Acidictadpole wrote:

It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.


I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be.

When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game.

CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit.

Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone.

Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread.

Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.

Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area.

Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE.


I'm in agreement that it's not the same as a Titan when you look at all the effects happening. But from the perspective of the victim, it's exactly the same. People who were not in the system when you scouted it popped into system right on top of you as soon as you enter it.

I agree it's another discussion, but again, it's identical in effect from the victim's point of view, and that's what is being used to describe this occurrence as unfair. And my posts in here don't condone using the "logonski" at all, but I'm defending it because I don't think people who do use it should be penalized.

These logonskis have been in Eve since the beginning. It's not a new problem, and CCP has had plenty of time to fix it just like they fixed the logoffski. If they truly saw it as a problem I have little to no doubt that something would have been said/done by now.


Nobody would do anything regarding a problem until people start standing up and screaming saying "this is a problem".

This should be addressed. How though, I could not tell you. Its not just local, as the local channel is as much intel to the people doing the logon trap as it is for the person warping into it. In addition, this example of a logon trap was done in wormhole space where there is no local. I'm not defending local, but local in this case, was not the issue.

Putting a timer on the people logging on won't help much as it would just be countered by having a 2nd or 3rd dictor there, and all the dictor has to do is live long enough for the timer to expire.

This probably has a simple answer, but I do believe were all in agreement that this is not a good tactic to allow be exploited by people (is it effective, yes, but is it a good one to keep around in eve, probably not).

Yaay!!!!

Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#43 - 2013-08-14 21:24:44 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:
Phaade wrote:

1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.



Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot.

Phaade wrote:

2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.


It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that you are mostly safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.

Phaade wrote:

So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item."
DERP


No, because you explicitly said hack eve. You're twisting my words to suit your needs and that's obviously not what I had said. There's no game mechanic being exploited in log off, only your illusion of safety. In your example you'd be circumventing the powergrid and cpu requirements of the item compared to a ship. Stop being silly about the examples you're thinking up.

Derp indeed.



1) Assumptions are based off gameplay and consistency within the Eve universe; your answer does not counter my argument in any way.

2) There is a complete circumvention of gameplay mechanics, primarily the fact that they do not show up in local. Is there any way to hide yourself from local chat in game? I think not; you're wrong again.

3) The fact that I hack is irrelevant; according to your logic, if it a certain end is possible one way or another, it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, just that it happened, and thus is not considered hacking or exploiting.

You lack reason.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#44 - 2013-08-15 04:43:54 UTC
The logical failures in this thread boggle the mind.

If I log out in a hostile system because I am le tired after a 6 hour op in a combat recon ship with a cyno on it (it happens), then a day or two later I log back on again in that same hostile system and lo and behold see a ship on dscan (and it doesn't see me cause I am cloaked) I convo corpmates, get a fleet up, find the ship, covcyno fleet on top. To the unwitting ship, it looks like a OMG log on trap. But it wasn't.

The point is, it is highly unlikely to be able to know definitively what someone's intent is when they log on. It might be to trap someone, it might be to look for targets, it might be to set skill queue, or check contracts or any number of things.....all of which fall under the banner of "Playing the game"

The developers changed the logoffski mechanic because it invalidated, dare I say robbed, pilot(s) effort in tackling and aggressing another ship. Logging on to PVP isn't robbing someone of effort at all, nor is it unfairly protecting someone.

To be honest, this smacks of lost ratting ship after hostile pilot camped the anomaly OP happened to be running. The failure to prepare, in this instance, would be that of OP either not having, not paying attention to, or ignoring intel channels about hostiles in the area.

One of EVE's many rules is: If you undock, be prepared to die in the ship you undocked in.

/thread

I'm right behind you

Blastil
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#45 - 2013-08-15 05:01:25 UTC
I can't remember the last time a login trap was used on me. TBH, this ambush method has become outmoded and rather useless thanks to the improvement of the black-ops mechanic. Its much harder to keep players interest when they're playing WOT alt-tabbed out of client. I see no reason to effect a negative nerf when a positive nerf has already removed the bad behavior almost entirely from EVE.
armymp327
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-08-15 05:24:47 UTC
Too many posts for me to read because im lazy, but if this has not been suggested i think an easy fix to this borderline exploit is to just randomize the location the person logging back in will be.

The most common log-in traps i see are people jumping into a ratting system, finding a half done anom and then logging out. after a few minutes they log back in and hope the person that was doing the anom is back and they then land right on top of them. But if that persons warp-to after login is randomized then that would no longer be an issue, same with gate camps and whatever else.
Whitehound
#47 - 2013-08-15 05:50:34 UTC
Logins should be given a 60 second cloak just like when jumping through a gate.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-08-15 06:49:39 UTC
The only problem with login traps is that it relies not on ingame mechanics but on abusing necessary client-server interaction. It's something that breaks suspension of disbelief and feels slightly outside the game.
As being said previously, this is the best way to bypass omnipotent intel tool that should've never been there in a first place.
So it should not be addressed until Local chat is updated. Then there might be some changes to login mechanics (e.g. timer to prevent attack) and/or D-scan (e.g. hiding behind a moon to become invisible from a particular gate). Such traps will be based on ingame mechn
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#49 - 2013-08-15 06:57:11 UTC
Non issue imo. Yes it's a slightly unintended mechanic but I can't think of, and haven't seen anyone suggest, a solution that wouldn't completely screw the game in some other manner.

As others have said, a hot drop gives the same end effect. Login traps don't have the ability to follow a target either.
As for wormhole space? A large amount of people log off caps whether they are an attacker or a defender, it cannot be helped.

As far as I'm concerned, some people here have lost a ship in what local chat told them was safe space and are massively heartbroken because of it and want the game changed so they can bear in peace. :P

I'm not against this being fixed/changed if ccp find a sensible way of doing it, but some arbitrary hard coded bodge to stop you being able to shoot when first logging in as some have hinted at is a bloody awful idea.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#50 - 2013-08-15 07:39:49 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer.

Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move)

(Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.)

Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/

This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system.

Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely.

However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone.

The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly.

Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone.

Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used.

Edit:

Some possible options to explore are:

- Prevent offensive PVP (IE you cannot attack someone without them attacking you 1st) unless you undock or change systems. A timer could be used to balance this out, something long enough to discourage login traps that require a fast attack and get away.

This obviously would not be a perfect solution due to cynoing people to your location from another area, but you could also make the timer instead universal. Also perhaps using titan / black ops ship would also be on a timer when logging in to prevent log-in / take cyno being the next iteration of this problem.


Glad to see Bitten still harvesting tears.

However, I honestly don't see any issue with players logging on and killing stuff. It's not - as some others have cried - an exploit.

Anyway, the only reason it's done is because of other really crappy mechanics. It's the only way to hide your fleet from local and the address book. It's far too easy to add the main bulk of a corporations players to the address book and be able to abuse that to determine how many members they're likely to bring to a fight. The problem is social tools like local and contact lists being old, poor mechanics that are abused and twisted into intel.

Remove contacts appearing as online/offline, and rebalance local somehow, and this wont happen because it'll no longer be necessary
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#51 - 2013-08-15 07:50:04 UTC
Rowells wrote:
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.

Why?
if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.

just my take.


Shouldn't be forced into PVP? Do you know what game you're playing m8

Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-08-15 08:09:46 UTC
The one thing I'm missing from this thread is, doesn't logging off in a bubble prevent emergency warp? In that case I can see logon trap being more of a problem, if you log in and are instantly in attack range of victim.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#53 - 2013-08-15 08:33:36 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.


So you're saying CCP did not intend for players to log into EVE Online in order to PVP?

Um... no. I'm 100% sure they did intend for players to log into EVE Online and then shoot spaceships and do other fun things.

ShadowandLight wrote:

This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.

Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.


I disagree, I think you can expect an alliance of that size to be aware of their entrance and exit wormholes 23/7, or very close to it. I've been in smaller wormhole corps/alliances who've managed to cover nearly the entire day - at times with only one or two vigilant souls from Down Under keeping their eyes open as they do whatever those crazy guys do when they're alone in the hole. They may not be able to put up a fight against a big invading party, but they saw what came and went and let everyone know about it. If you see people seeding capitals into your system, maybe you should hold off on lazily PVEing until you can take care of it.

Anyway, even if a corp or alliance isn't able to watch the system 23/7 - and that's fine if they can't manage it, timezones, real lives, etc - people should still understand that in that type of space other people are likely to try and kill stuff. When it eventually happens and someone is caught at an unfortunate time and lose some ships, that's just the way it is. Crying "exploit exploit!" and asking for mechanic changes is bizarre to me.

ShadowandLight wrote:
That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.

Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)

Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots

Have a cloaked scanning watching the target

and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.

The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.

It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics.


This is just a whole load of wrong. The only "advantage" to seeding caps is that you end up with a larger force than the mass limit permits - but this comes at a huge investment, both in time and pilots. And the only reason this is even done is because the defender/residents inherently have such a ridiculously huge advantage in terms of assets located in system by virtue of it being their home system. They already have dozens of capitals because it's their system. To call seeding caps an "advantage" is laughable.

As for having ships at random safe spots, having a cloaky watching things, etc... there is nothing that prevents the residents from doing the same thing. Why can't they have their caps logged off (or on, and cloaked) at safe spots? Why can't they have cloaked players watching whats going on in the system?

For the last time, it is not an exploit.
Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-08-15 13:25:27 UTC
Phaade wrote:

1) Assumptions are based off gameplay and consistency within the Eve universe; your answer does not counter my argument in any way.

Just because you feel safe when local is empty doesn't mean you are safe. That's what I'm trying to get at. You *know* titan bridges exist. You *know* that people can pull this log on trap. I think it perfectly counters your argument. You felt like because local was empty you were safe, that was a bad assumption. You can use local to help judge your potential for an encounter, but it's not a guarantee in any way.
Phaade wrote:


2) There is a complete circumvention of gameplay mechanics, primarily the fact that they do not show up in local. Is there any way to hide yourself from local chat in game? I think not; you're wrong again.


They don't show up in local because they're not logged in. That's intended mechanics.

Phaade wrote:


3) The fact that I hack is irrelevant; according to your logic, if it a certain end is possible one way or another, it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, just that it happened, and thus is not considered hacking or exploiting.

You lack reason.


The fact that you hack is irrelevant? There are mechanics in place to prevent you from fitting a doomsday to a noob ship. If you circumvent those mechanics by any means, then it's an exploit/hacking. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this.

Of course it matters how the end is achieved. The only way this kind of trap could be considered an exploit is if they are actually logged into their character but somehow not showing up in local in normal space. They aren't logged into their character, thus they don't show up in local.

If it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, then you just agreed that this is identical to a titan bridge. Because the 'end' is the exact same thing happening as a logon trap from your perspective.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-08-15 14:17:34 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.


At all, all you need is to add contact and watch list once you spot the ship on your DS, probe it and wait.
Guy logs in, uncloack/bble and be ready to light cyno, waw how much related to local this is? -nothing it's exactly the same stuff you do in wh' that have no local, yet the same technique is used because timers are the factor and not local.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Kenji Eyrou
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-08-15 14:55:32 UTC
So what OP is really telling us is that we can hotdrop in High Sec, without the use of Cyno Field, Cyno Pilots or burning up fuel to light or use the cyno to ambush a fleet...

Good to know.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#57 - 2013-08-15 15:07:54 UTC
I'm on the verge of saying that the login trap is as close to risk free PVP as you can get. Someone used the example of a cloaked dictor bubble when you come in. The main difference between a cyno and a login trap is that there are weaknesses with the cyno in terms of you are immobile for 5 minutes while the cyno is burning.

Time wise..
How long does it take for someone to land on grid when they login?
How long does it take to light a cyno+have titan activate bridge+have fleet members take bridge+load grid?

If the login trap takes less time then I believe this to be a bigger deal because it involves less risk because you cannot pop while your logged off, but your fleet can get ambushed while sitting on a titan outside a pos bubble.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#58 - 2013-08-15 16:03:03 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
I'm on the verge of saying that the login trap is as close to risk free PVP as you can get. Someone used the example of a cloaked dictor bubble when you come in. The main difference between a cyno and a login trap is that there are weaknesses with the cyno in terms of you are immobile for 5 minutes while the cyno is burning.

Time wise..
How long does it take for someone to land on grid when they login?
How long does it take to light a cyno+have titan activate bridge+have fleet members take bridge+load grid?

If the login trap takes less time then I believe this to be a bigger deal because it involves less risk because you cannot pop while your logged off, but your fleet can get ambushed while sitting on a titan outside a pos bubble.


The time to land on grid is about the time it takes to cyno, activate portal, and bridge. Both are very quick, but not instantaneous.

Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.


At all, all you need is to add contact and watch list once you spot the ship on your DS, probe it and wait.
Guy logs in, uncloack/bble and be ready to light cyno, waw how much related to local this is? -nothing it's exactly the same stuff you do in wh' that have no local, yet the same technique is used because timers are the factor and not local.


And why is this used in WH space? To hide from our intel tools. Really, they have no other options to exercise in w-space (I suppose putting cloaks on everything might work, but it gimps your combat ability).

In nullsec, the only technique to hide from those in local is to NOT be in local. Please realize I don't want local removed, I just want an actual intel system that doesn't instantly identify a player as friend or foe the second they come into local. I don't think that information should be handed to you on a silver platter.
Hentes Zsemle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-08-15 17:12:15 UTC
I used to do this a lot. The only reason for it is that otherwise the people who live in hostile nullsec warp to a safe station or pos or log off as soon as you enter a system. Which they automagically get to know - through local chat. Btw if you think this is a riskless way of pvp, you are stupid.
Vexed Nova
NovaTech Holdings
#60 - 2013-08-15 17:56:12 UTC
This is just one of those topics where no one gains any ground and people like me throw our hat in the ring as an excuse to type some long wall of text.

Often times, the only way to force an engagement is to trick someone into fighting. Basically, using a log in trap is sometimes the ONLY way to get a fight. Otherwise, you are more likely to play station/gate/celestial games until 1. someone makes a mistake, b. someone decides to be a hero or c. you get bored and log off for the night.

There are two schools of thought involved here.
1. Log off/on traps ARE valid and not exploits basically because it is the only way for an aggressor to set up favorable conditions to force and capitalize on an engagement. There really isn't any other reason to do it. It's to get kills.

2. Log off/on traps are a creative use of mechanics because, if you consider the spirit of the game, when you remove yourself from the gaming universe, you are thus using an omnipotent ability to effect the gaming universe (most would liken this to God-mode). This is only really matters to people on the wrong side of the gun as most who commit the trap don't think of it that way. It is just a creative use of game mechanics. It will be that way until CCP does something about it. If they don't. Whatever. If they do, okay. Wait a month and start this discussion over again with a similar game mechanic massage. EVE players are fantastic at finding and exploiting loop-holes. I swear, most of them must work for insurance companies.

I have been on both sides of the fence and I really don't give a crap either way.

Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".

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