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Log-in traps: Something to address?

Author
Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#21 - 2013-08-14 16:50:54 UTC
Logging into EVE confirmed to be an exploit.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#22 - 2013-08-14 17:12:06 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!


This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through.


I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this.


"It is aboslutely unrelated to Local Chat"

What is it that local chat is used for: Getting intel on pilots in system.

[Paraphrasing] "Logged off pilots completely avoid all forms of ingame intel gathering"

The dots are right there. Logging off is one of the two "in game" techniques to avoid the game's intel system. The other one, cynoing in, has other disadvantages and issues, and often requires a titan.

I don't like log on traps, and don't do them, but I understand why they are done. They are a symptom of our in-games intel system which is too omnipotent for "dangerous" space.

If you alter the intel system, appropriately, I don't think people would bother with log in traps. As for a reasonable means to replace our local chat with an intel system, this is how I would do it.
Corun Deluse
Japanese Capacitor Company
#23 - 2013-08-14 17:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Corun Deluse
Logged off pilots can't shoot you.

It takes less than two seconds for for a stealth bomber to decloak and tackle you while his buddies wait out their decloak targeting delay. And without local you had absolutely no warning that he was there.

Pilots in the process of logging in DO show on DScan while their ewarp is finishing. If they had a covops cloak, it takes several seconds before they can press the button. It also takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds after they're on grid until they've fully exited warp and can start shooting things.

Logging in isn't much faster than their fleet being in the next system over. If you're tackled they're gonna get you just as easily as the guys logging in. If your intel network would have detected them in the next system over, why didn't your intel network detect them logging off?

A logon trap is also significantly slower and less effective than a hotdrop. Bridged (titan or blackops) ships can start shooting as soon as they load grid, and they'll have fleet boosts all set up. a logon trap wont.

If we're talking large scale fights, there should be 0 chance your intel/spy networks missed their large fieet moving around. Again they wont be in fleet as they log in thus reducing their effectiveness compared to coming in on a cyno.

Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#24 - 2013-08-14 17:41:28 UTC
If a group has to use a Titan to kill someone, then we can discuss if Titan Jump Portals are overpowered or not

But at least players are logged in, using "normal" game mechanics to attack another pilot. They are visable on the in-game map (outside of wormholes)

Logging out prevents any chance of gathering intel of your attackers in anyway.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#25 - 2013-08-14 17:45:49 UTC
Corun Deluse wrote:

Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect.


However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.

This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.

Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.

So, you figure out when your target is least active, you run into their system, don't put a POS up (they might see it on d-scan) and you wait for them play EVE.

I admire the time, planning and energy it takes to attack someone. However logging out in a system to avoid being seen using in-game mechanics needs to be stopped.

Also, as the years go on its becoming faster and faster to log into EVE. From client side improvements to faster hardware on CCP's side.

Corun Deluse
Japanese Capacitor Company
#26 - 2013-08-14 18:30:24 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:

However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.

This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.


I've never heard of a fleet logging out in a system for more than a couple hours waiting to spring a trap. I've logged out in invasion towers in null and wormholes alike, however those weren't "traps" and if the defenders didn't notice that we didn't fly home that's their problem not CCPs.

Also, i'm pretty sure my Black-Ops battleship popping out of a wormhole 5ly away is harder to detect than remembering that 30 guys came into your system an hour ago and haven't been seen leaving.


ShadowandLight wrote:

Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.


Actually, i'd be surprised if serious wormhole dwellers didn't have 23/7 eyes on all entrances to their system. For smaller entities it's obviously harder but nowhere near impossible. With the Odyssey changes to scanning, it's easier than ever to know when new wormholes opened up in your system. The K162 opens up when they initiate warp, so you have the time it takes for them to exit warp and fly 10km to point your dscan in that direction and you'll see stuff coming in.

And again, logging off in space makes you show up on DScan for 30 seconds, and logging in for about 10. Staying logged-in and cloaked does not betray your presence at all. However in both cases, you're visible when you enter the system the first time.

The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole). However, as above, if the residents are watching their entrances they'll see the caps come in (30 seconds to get into warp off the hole, 30 seconds of warping, 30 seconds of logging off) and know what's going on. On the flip side, just by the nature of living there, the defenders have all or most their capitals logged off too just by the mantra "log off in your most expensive ships" that wormholers live by.

In null-sec I have yet to see a situation where logging off is a more effective "trap" than simply using black-ops, titans, or being in the next system over. If you see 'em come in and don't see 'em leave, they're either still in the system giving you time to setup a trap for them, or they left through a wormhole you failed to notice.
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#27 - 2013-08-14 18:37:38 UTC
Kallie Rae wrote:
Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful.



It's not a smart ambush tactic, it's an exploitation of existing game mechanics. You can't explain away this truth.

Consistent with the rest of....Eve "reality".... a character can "log off" (wtf is that to my pilot in game) and render his ship completely undetectable? In what way is that reasonable?
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#28 - 2013-08-14 18:43:10 UTC
Corun Deluse wrote:


The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole).


That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.

Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)

Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots

Have a cloaked scanning watching the target

and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.

The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.

It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#29 - 2013-08-14 18:43:32 UTC
I liked the idea of decreasing warp speed of a ship that logs in while in space. If that proves too tricky, increasing the distance a ship must warp when it logs in would have the same effect.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-08-14 19:23:07 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.


So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me.

This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.
Corun Deluse
Japanese Capacitor Company
#31 - 2013-08-14 19:52:56 UTC
Again, if the defender is large enough to have a chance against a dread and a moderate support fleet (that enter and exit through a single wormhole, no log-off required) they're either big enough to be aware of their surroundings and have alts watching their entrances. The longer the attacker plays log-off games, the more time the defenders have to batphone for help.

In order to consider capital-seeding by the attackers, you also have to consider "capital seeding" by the defenders that probably have had significantly longer to seed their own capitals. If two entities of equal size and resources are fighting, the nature of wormhole mass limits will give defenders a significant advantage. The fact that the defending capitals are likely logged out at a tower is an advantage to them, not the attackers. You can still safe-log inside a tower forcefield. Warp can't stop ships warping out of a tower (they'll just give aggression timers, but those don't matter if they're warping into combat).

Wormholes are not taken by a couple seeded capitals. They're taken by locking down the system to prevent reinforcements. You can't do that while logged off. It's possible for a few capitals to go dark in a system for an extended period of time, but caps without a support fleet are easy kills. I don't see a support fleet living in your system for an extended period of time without being noticed.("Guys, don't log in this week at all please.") If they got in undetected they're risking detection by logging off and waiting.

Even if you aren't paying attention you still have a full strontium bay in your towers and the "Your stuff's under attack!" mails to figure out who's doing it.

Increasing the e-warp time on login is a possibility. It would increase the time it takes for those caps to enter the fight but would do nothing about the fact that they're already in system. And it already takes a significant amount of time for a safe-spotted capital to enter the field of battle. (30 sec align, e-warp to safespot, 30 sec align, warp to target, exit warp/stop, (siege if it's a dread), target) If we're talking null/low sec we've already established several faster and more effective ways to achieve the same result.

If you make ships unable to shoot for X mins after logging in, those invading caps will just hang out in the invasion tower until they can shoot (if they're invading, they're setting up a tower). You also completely ruin any fight where people disconnect through no fault of their own.

Since there's no way to tell the difference between an intentional logoff and a disconnect, making un-aggressed ships stay in space forever on disconnect somehow I doesn't seem like a good idea. If they're aggressed, 15mins (5 for npc timers) is ample time to scan them down. (takes about 30 sec if you know approx where they are. less if you already have probes out)
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#32 - 2013-08-14 20:07:18 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
ShadowandLight wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.

so you would call ppl emptying a system and camping the exit gate in the next system exploitation too?

prety sure you would call cyno drop exploit then right?

it's funny to see how null sec is laughing when low complain about cyno drop, when they are in theyr cyno jammed system.

but the second you do the same to them, find an innovative game play to kill them, it's an exploit!

u mad? show us on the doll where the bad piwate touched you etc......



Ahh, an argument void of any logic or reason. There are so many problems with this response, I don't even know how to respond.

If you can't see how this is an exploitation of game mechanics then you're either slow or in denial.
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#33 - 2013-08-14 20:10:19 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?

The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.

Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!






I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.

I do wish local did not exist though.
Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-08-14 20:16:44 UTC
Phaade wrote:


I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.

I do wish local did not exist though.



If local did not exist then you'd have no idea between this and people hanging out around 14.5 AU away.
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#35 - 2013-08-14 20:19:00 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.


So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me.

This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.


1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.

2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.

So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item."

DERP
Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-08-14 20:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Acidictadpole
Phaade wrote:

1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.



Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot.

Phaade wrote:

2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.


It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that you are mostly safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.

Phaade wrote:

So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item."
DERP


No, because you explicitly said hack eve. You're twisting my words to suit your needs and that's obviously not what I had said. There's no game mechanic being exploited in log off, only your illusion of safety. In your example you'd be circumventing the powergrid and cpu requirements of the item compared to a ship. Stop being silly about the examples you're thinking up.

Derp indeed.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#37 - 2013-08-14 20:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!


This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through.


I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this.


"It is aboslutely unrelated to Local Chat"

What is it that local chat is used for: Getting intel on pilots in system.

[Paraphrasing] "Logged off pilots completely avoid all forms of ingame intel gathering"

The dots are right there. Logging off is one of the two "in game" techniques to avoid the game's intel system. The other one, cynoing in, has other disadvantages and issues, and often requires a titan.

I don't like log on traps, and don't do them, but I understand why they are done. They are a symptom of our in-games intel system which is too omnipotent for "dangerous" space.

If you alter the intel system, appropriately, I don't think people would bother with log in traps. As for a reasonable means to replace our local chat with an intel system, this is how I would do it.


...Your suggested system is amusingly even more vulnerable to login traps. To achieve the same response time as a login trap, you need to have people sitting in a nearby safespot (less than a few AU away). In your proposed system, the victim would not only know that there are a bunch of hostiles in system, but how far away they are and what ships they're in. The only difference is that the victim knows their impending doom by virtue of a million new ships on scan rather than a local spike.

Log on traps in their current state will not become obsolete unless intel itself becomes obsolete.


Quote:
Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot.


Do you really think the game is better when the only way to avoid having a fleet dropped on you within seconds is to not fight? Do you see that making..anything at all...more fun or interesting?
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#38 - 2013-08-14 20:31:26 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:

It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.


I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be.

When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game.

CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit.

Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone.

Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread.

Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.

Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area.

Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#39 - 2013-08-14 20:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
This sounds like an issue with local. Unless I can confirm through local that you have logged out I wouldn't know to try a log in trap. If there is no local what is the difference between you e-warping after you log and you warping off to a safe and cloaking or warping to a POS? For all intensive purposes without local, and you not being on grid, I can't tell if you are logged in or not.

As someone who has used log in traps to catch machs and nightmares ratting, the only time I have used that trick is when I can CONFIRM you logged out. Without local it is very difficult to confirm that. Solution: Remove local.

I don't think you could convincingly argue that this is an exploit enough to get CCP to figure out a way to tell log in trap logs ins from other log ins. If I am hunting you and I disconnect where you were then log back in. You view it as a log in trap. I view it as my internet is terrible and I want to log back in. There are just too many edge cases that unless you were watching the people play you couldn't know if it were a log in trap or something else. IF It is an exploit you really can't punish people because of the edge cases where it might not be their fault.
Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-08-14 20:38:09 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Acidictadpole wrote:

It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.


I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be.

When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game.

CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit.

Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone.

Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread.

Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.

Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area.

Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE.


I'm in agreement that it's not the same as a Titan when you look at all the effects happening. But from the perspective of the victim, it's exactly the same. People who were not in the system when you scouted it popped into system right on top of you as soon as you enter it.

I agree it's another discussion, but again, it's identical in effect from the victim's point of view, and that's what is being used to describe this occurrence as unfair. And my posts in here don't condone using the "logonski" at all, but I'm defending it because I don't think people who do use it should be penalized.

These logonskis have been in Eve since the beginning. It's not a new problem, and CCP has had plenty of time to fix it just like they fixed the logoffski. If they truly saw it as a problem I have little to no doubt that something would have been said/done by now.