These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Log-in traps: Something to address?

Author
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#61 - 2013-08-15 18:01:22 UTC
Vexed Nova wrote:

Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".


Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?

If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?
Vexed Nova
NovaTech Holdings
#62 - 2013-08-15 18:24:02 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:


Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?

If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?


Well, I think that was partially addressed by being held on grid with combat timers clicking away. I know in the past, creative carrier pilots disco'd to warp off grid. I don't think that works anymore.

Either logging in or logging off to avoid or capitalize on PVP are both creative uses of game mechanics

Please check out my blog! EVE Industrialist Blog - http://bit.ly/1m9Oegu

Vexed Nova
NovaTech Holdings
#63 - 2013-08-15 18:31:40 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:


If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?


I think the term "acceptable" and "able" are used by whatever side you chose. If you look at it that way, being "able" to do it is also "acceptable" when the game developer doesn't put a stop to it.

Just my two isk.

Please check out my blog! EVE Industrialist Blog - http://bit.ly/1m9Oegu

Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#64 - 2013-08-15 19:53:24 UTC
I have never been killed by this type of trap.

However, given the info here, I can spend all the time I want checking local, in-game intel as well as out of game intel (DotLan) to find a 'safe' route through bad space and still get killed by a group of non-titan equipped enemies.

I think that is very much against the spirit of EvE. Yes there is danger, and yes there is sometimes little you can do about it. By allowing pilots to remove themselves from local at will it makes for an unbalanced situation in favor of the attacker.

After reading the entire thread, the best option I have seen is to have the eWarp drop you anywhere from 10-20KM ( not less that 10km ) away from your exit point. At least this give the target a chance for lady luck to step in and add the precious seconds needed to warp off.

To me this is exactly what clocking should be, same as a log-off but a pretty screensaver and chat.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-08-15 22:09:07 UTC
I don't think comparing the tactic to Titan bridging is fair. You can add a Titan pilot to your watch list, so when he's online you have some idea that a cyno drop is a possibility and can plan accordingly. Yeah you have to do some scouting, and spying as well probably, to find out who those pilots are but it can be done, it's just takes *effort*. Not being able to tell if a fleet is logged off in a system until it's too late just isn't the same.

Reading that link in OP, it seems impressive on the surface but when you look at how wh's are, it's not really surprising or all that impressive. That's one of the side effects of the current scanning system and no local. You have no way of knowing what's out there unless you are constantly clicking a friggin button over and over again. Having to do that **** all the time is just not fun, it's why I left after a few months of living in one.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2013-08-15 22:18:39 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?

The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.

Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!


Was thinking the same thing here. Seems like the root problem is local. Guy logs in a scout, sees local full of "bad guys" logs of and doesn't log in his main in the juicey target.

People get tired of this and figure, fine we'll log too except for the scout in a hictor in an NPC corp. Then when he is caught we'll log in and kill him.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#67 - 2013-08-15 22:58:48 UTC
You people keep throwing up "LOCAL IS THE PROBLEM AAAAAHHHHHH" defense are driving me to drink.....

Your being intellectually dishonest and Its complete whitewash

The perfect example of how broken this "mechanic" is (if you would please read my very 1st post in this thread) is the example used in a WH fight.

There IS NO LOCAL in WH space. Its gone. All you "I hate local" people have no other defense on why log-in traps should be allowed to continue when you use local as a defense, when the example that best illustrates the problem is INSIDE A WORMHOLE.

This is a cheap tactic, used because they couldn't find any other way to bring enough firepower to attack the people living in the WH without taking losses.

Once again, I admire the time, dedication and planning needed to pull this off. However they should have been forced to setup a POS OR have such a delay when trying to log-in to attack someone that it would be untenable.

Just to be clear

THIS HAPPENED IN A WORMHOLE
Corun Deluse
Japanese Capacitor Company
#68 - 2013-08-15 23:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Corun Deluse
ShadowandLight wrote:
- Prevent offensive PVP (IE you cannot attack someone without them attacking you 1st) unless you undock or change systems.

Having to leave system and come back through a mass-limited hole before you can shoot anything sounds like a great improvement for wormhole pvp. Docking is, obviously, not an option.

ShadowandLight wrote:
A timer could be used to balance this out, something long enough to discourage login traps that require a fast attack and get away.

Having a no-pvp timer on login just slows the action down and puts the defenders on an even bigger disadvantage than they were with just the logon trap because the attackers know in advance. The defenders cant respond to the attack until it happens, so the'll still have "No-PvP timers" while the attackers get to shoot at them.

Here's how It'd play out:
- attackers come in, warp to safe spots, "lose internet connection" (because logging out in space is an exploit)
- attackers organize a time to all log in together. Their "no-pvp" timers start ticking.
- attackers start putting up a tower.
- If the defenders see this right away, they batphone/jabber and start logging in their stuff. Best case they're 1-2 minutes behind the attackers, worst case, 10+ minutes.
- Attackers get to pew at stuff for many minutes with no danger because defenders can only return fire, not initiate attacks.
- Defenders cant do squat about the tower, cause they can't shoot yet.

How bout a scenario even less in the defender's favor:
- Attackers find an entrance
- defenders see this, call people on jabber/cellphones etc. defense fleet starts logging on (remember, they're sleeping)
- attackers bring in 20 T3s, an orca, and a dread. wormhole closes.
- attackers gets to set up tower under no threat because defenders can't shoot yet.

No log-on trap here, but the anti-logon trap totally ruined it for the defenders, why even bother?


I have yet to be convinced that logging on in space is as serious a problem as some people seem to think. And even if it is, any solution I've read or I can come up with beyond "Your internet must be perfect and you're never allowed to log out" is an order of magnitude worse for the game than being able to log on and shoot things.

ShadowandLight wrote:
If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?

Remember, the log-off change was made because prior to that it was nearly impossible to kill super capitals. All they needed to do was close their client (or unplug their internet) and their ship would disappear before it exploded.

edit: Also, logging out to AVOID pvp is still completely possible. You just cant log out DURING pvp and expect to keep your stuff. If you have no aggression timers you dissapear in 30 seconds. With the safe logout feature you get to watch your ship/dscan for that entire time. If you have an aggression timer you're not AVOIDING pvp, your trying to use meta-game to ESCAPE pvp.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#69 - 2013-08-16 00:21:51 UTC
You bring up many good points, if any solution implemented is too far into the margins

I would only ask that a mechanic be put into place to prevent "Log-in / Gank / Run" type of ops

Also, in an ideal world, ships logged out in a system should be able to be scanned out (not found, but able to be noticed).

You shouldn't be able to log out 10 dreads in someones system and have any idea they are there unless you have enough people to watch the system / wh's / etc for 24 hours a day..... That is not realistic.

I am not looking to prevent people from playing EVE, but for the ganks (like the one in the 1st post) there was a short window.... perhaps 10-15 minutes max, that the attackers had to get in and get out.

Logging in and being able to instantly target / kill someone without the opposition having any mechanic to know there is a possibility you could be jumped on is broken.

Also, I might have the mechanics wrong, but I *think* that if you are in PVE, log out, then get attacked the PVP timer goes into effect.... locking your ship in game...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2013-08-16 04:16:38 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
You people keep throwing up "LOCAL IS THE PROBLEM AAAAAHHHHHH" defense are driving me to drink.....

Your being intellectually dishonest and Its complete whitewash

The perfect example of how broken this "mechanic" is (if you would please read my very 1st post in this thread) is the example used in a WH fight.

There IS NO LOCAL in WH space. Its gone. All you "I hate local" people have no other defense on why log-in traps should be allowed to continue when you use local as a defense, when the example that best illustrates the problem is INSIDE A WORMHOLE.

This is a cheap tactic, used because they couldn't find any other way to bring enough firepower to attack the people living in the WH without taking losses.

Once again, I admire the time, dedication and planning needed to pull this off. However they should have been forced to setup a POS OR have such a delay when trying to log-in to attack someone that it would be untenable.

Just to be clear

THIS HAPPENED IN A WORMHOLE


Yo ragetard, might want to read your own OP since I don't see wormhole anywhere in there. And sorry, I pretty much ignore wormhole stuff so I don't know wormhole corps by name....oh and might I suggest decaf coffee?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#71 - 2013-08-16 07:01:03 UTC
ITT: Crying over the "latest" mechanic.

This ability has been around since day one of EvE, OP has only just gotten around to being killed by it and has created this spurge of a thread.

I think overall it does come down to local, feeling too secure in your intel of local (entitlist?) as if local did not exist (as in wormhole space) how would you know that it was a log-on trap that was performed? That they didn't warp in from a freshly spawned wormhole? (I've been in this game since 07, I've done half my EvE life in wormholes and the other in null) Your only indication is that they have more capitals than there is mass of a wormhole for and how then do you know that you weren't just bad of keeping track of what was in your hole and they'd kept out of the way at a deep safe (within the planetary influence obviously, not the deep deep safes of old). Or that there entire fleet didn't have cloaking devices?

As for the null argument this is just crying because you died, next you'd complain that some gates are too close together because you got tackled by the single dictor on gate and a fleet hiding behind a gate ~500000km away was able to warp in too quickly before you got back to gate. Or that wormholes should be removed because you couldnt see the fleet that was hiding in the hole waiting for that same tackle, or that covert cyno's should get nerfed because you got tackled by that arazu on gate and hotdropped, or that (insert ship here) should get removed because they too managed to tackle you and you got titan bridged on top of.

There are plenty of mechanics to project a considerable force on top of your position very quickly, there will more than likely be mechanics that will be come up with that you'll proceed to cry about in the future.

TL:DR; stop crying.
Vexed Nova
NovaTech Holdings
#72 - 2013-08-16 18:01:09 UTC
seany1212 wrote:


TL:DR; stop crying.



HAHA!

Well, That will just about cover the fly-by's.

Please check out my blog! EVE Industrialist Blog - http://bit.ly/1m9Oegu

ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#73 - 2013-08-16 18:22:08 UTC
seany1212 wrote:

This ability has been around since day one of EvE, OP has only just gotten around to being killed by it and has created this spurge of a thread.

Acutally I've never personally experienced it that I can recall, but that doesnt mean I dont think its a good game "mechanic"
seany1212 wrote:

I think overall it does come down to local, feeling too secure in your intel of local (entitlist?) as if local did not exist (as in wormhole space) how would you know that it was a log-on trap that was performed?

Its not a local problem as I stated above. Its a problem of people able to "hide" ships outside of the current game mechanics. Logged off ships are not able to be noticed by any game mechanic. This problem is exacerbated in WH's, but it exists in all areas of EVE.

Unless CCP comes into the thread and says log-in traps are something they are happy with and part of the grand EVE design I will keep contending that this is an unintended consequence that hasn't had the light shined on it in a public manner. it is absolutely unintended that people are able to "seed" capitals, log them out inside a WH and then wait and do a mass login to trap someone. There are some very commendable things occurring there, PVP is happening (good), planning, strategy, risk calculation etc. But in the end they are using a broken mechanic to try and "gank" someone that wouldn't be possible if else wise.
seany1212 wrote:

There are plenty of mechanics to project a considerable force on top of your position very quickly, there will more than likely be mechanics that will be come up with that you'll proceed to cry about in the future.

I am being intellectually honest, are you? Titan / blackop's hot dropping require you to be in-game and use specialized ships to accomplish this task. (we can argue if this is overpowered in another thread, frankly if I think about it I can swing either direction.) Trapping someone near a gate and jumping in from the other side with your fleet to kill them requires you to be in-game. These examples involve being logged into EVE and with proper scouting can be mostly avoided (or at least give your intel a chance to detect them).

Without staying logged in 24/7, you wouldnt know people there was x number of ships hiding in your system, logged out sitting on the character selection screen waiting to gank you.

TL;DR? Using in-game mechanics... good.... hiding your fleet by logging it out to gain an advantage, bad...
Whitehound
#74 - 2013-08-16 18:27:31 UTC
Vexed Nova wrote:
seany1212 wrote:


TL:DR; stop crying.



HAHA!

Well, That will just about cover the fly-by's.

While it is good to tell people to stop with crying, or to make them cry if they have not done so yet, does OP seem to be long past the point and deserves a bit of respect.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2013-08-16 21:00:19 UTC
Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic...
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#76 - 2013-08-16 21:04:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic...


I think one solution might be making any piloted ships logged off in space "detectable"

You wouldnt be able to find those ships or pinpoint them, but CCP could allow you to take a headcount of the ships logged out.

IE there is 10 ships logged out (piloted) in this system. Add it to the scanner system.

Allowing people to know WHAT ships are logged out (IE, 5 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 super) might be a bit too much information.

Frankly I am not sure what fix is best, but certainty the current mechanic is not what was intended.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2013-08-16 21:06:37 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic...


I think one solution might be making any piloted ships logged off in space "detectable"

You wouldnt be able to find those ships or pinpoint them, but CCP could allow you to take a headcount of the ships logged out.

IE there is 10 ships logged out (piloted) in this system. Add it to the scanner system.

Allowing people to know WHAT ships are logged out (IE, 5 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 super) might be a bit too much information.

Frankly I am not sure what fix is best, but certainty the current mechanic is not what was intended.



Don't you think this would be kind of skewed by friendlies? I mean, if I ran this in my home system and picked up fifty logged out ships, they'd probably all just be locals. Or hell, thousands of unsubbed characters, depending on the system.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#78 - 2013-08-17 09:30:32 UTC
I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.

A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.

There is no PVP generated in this case, only a gank on some targets that had little to no chance of retaliating. The only possibly viable tactic to fight back is your own log on trap, which is about as dumb as saying the best way to counter titans is more titans.

I dont think that any of the suggested "NO PVP" timers are the right way to go so I can't say I have the solution but I do agree it is a problem. I think allowing you some form of rudimentary intel as to what is/how much is logged off in a system is much closer to the way to go, but not perfect either. In regards to system sieges it is very rare when the defender doesnt already know someone is seeding capitals in their system, it isnt usually a surprise as much as a " you know its coming just not when" situation, So i dont think this additional intel will have a significant impact on this.

If you want to gank someone, at least having to be logged in prior to the gank allows the people to see you and maybe be ready/able to fight back. Even if your fleets at a deep safe combat scanners are likely to pick it out and so your not completely surprised when a blob lands on your pve fleet.

If I want to hide a large capital fleet, force them to pay for their covertness, having to fit a cloak into their entire fleet is the price one should have to pay if i want my fleet to be cloaked, logging off makes it too simple

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#79 - 2013-08-17 10:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
ExookiZ wrote:
I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.

A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.


I believe it would go a long way, if people just logging in again would be scrammable. Else you got some jokers jumping and logging, and no matter how hard you agress, cannot tackle them until they log in and reappear back where they logged.
So please let us apply points to things that just logged in. Nothing more annyoing than pointing/bubbling a carrier 1mil km off their POS and it just warps back <.<
Would imo also make for a lot more tackled supers, which is clearly always a good thing.


Aside from that, I'm pro to keeping the logoff-traps in-game. Warnings and similiar stuff shouldn't be dealt with by the rules, but with spies/intel/metastuff. That's more the eve way :3
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-08-17 17:04:57 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Vexed Nova wrote:

Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".


Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?

If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?


Might I suggest some haldol?

Seriously though, the person appears to be on your side regarding log on traps.

Comparing valid in game mechanics (bridging) vs. log on traps (and yes logging off to avoid PVP) is not a valid comparison. CCP pruposefully created the bridging modules/ships/mechanic for the express purpose of moving systems without moving gates and introducing uncertainty to the game.

Log on/off stuff is admittedly dubious, it is like trying to get a hot drop on the sly. Right now, given how local works in null sec, I know you freaked out about this happening in WH space, it does render null very, very safe. So, if you wanted to prohibit this kind of thing in WH's right now, I'd be fine with it (yeah, I know I'm not a WH dweller so my view may not carry much weight) but given how easy it is to reduce risk and uncertainty in the game in null at the moment, I'd prefer to leave the log on option even thought I don't find it very appealing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online