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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1281 - 2013-08-12 21:23:56 UTC
Valfreyea wrote:
Just got on Sisi to test the Eos.

Fozzie, could you explain the point of the hybrid tracking bonus when your ship only has four turrets? Also, even with a speed bonus, the heavies are still hilariously slow, and rather easy to kill.

Combined with the limited dronebay (unless your enemies are new to this game, you're going to lose a lot of heavies, fast), I don't really understand the point of making the Eos a weaker brawler when compared to the Astarte. Rather, shouldn't it be give a different role?

Or something more interesting, like perhaps the ability to field more drones per level, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

Perhaps give a double bonus, replacing the hybrid tracking with another 7.5% to Heavy Drone speed and perhaps RoF?

Haven't seen a bonus for drone RoF, so it'd be something new at least :p


Honestly I'm pretty unimpressed with the design of the eos as a drone boat. It's pretty obvious that they wanted to avoid giving it a sentry bonus because sentries are flavor of the month, but the heavy drone bonus is simply underwhelming. It would have been awesome to get +1 drone per level and make it a medium drone boat, which would be close to the same DPS as 5 heavies but it would be a damage application bonus. As it is the eos is kind of like a sad ishtar that can fit gang links.

And the 5% turret tracking is misplaced in just about every way possible.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1282 - 2013-08-12 21:26:21 UTC
Valfreyea wrote:


Perhaps give a double bonus, replacing the hybrid tracking with another 7.5% to Heavy Drone speed and perhaps RoF?

Haven't seen a bonus for drone RoF, so it'd be something new at least :p


I'd much rather see the ship get a midslot, lose the tracking bonus, lose some of the armor HP granted in the most recent proposal and then gain a 10% armor hp per level in place of the tracking bonus.

Also, 7.5% to rof would be so hilariously overpowered.
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1283 - 2013-08-12 21:27:04 UTC
holly mother of ******* **** ....absolution needs to lose the capacitor bonus ..give it a tracking bonus ( no 4th med slot to fit web ) also astarte needs +1 more low slot ..u just can`t do a nice tank on that ship ..it takes to much dmg and reps to slow and goese kboom ..sleipnir is like omfgwtfbbq ..the tank + dmg on that is gonna make it insane ..THANK GOD for 5 ogre eos again ....as for nighthawk and vulture ...well they seem "legit" but still there will be no interest in nighthawk ....still is a lil bit better vs cruisers / frigates now with that radius bonus and last but not least ..missile claymore is ..lol ..u should stop making minmatar missiles + autos ..and just stick to autos as for damnation ...now it can actually have some dps rather then a big buff
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
#1284 - 2013-08-12 21:46:55 UTC
Just posting to say I love the damnation changes. Stocking up on them now =)
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1285 - 2013-08-12 21:58:34 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Valfreyea wrote:


Perhaps give a double bonus, replacing the hybrid tracking with another 7.5% to Heavy Drone speed and perhaps RoF?

Haven't seen a bonus for drone RoF, so it'd be something new at least :p


I'd much rather see the ship get a midslot, lose the tracking bonus, lose some of the armor HP granted in the most recent proposal and then gain a 10% armor hp per level in place of the tracking bonus.

Also, 7.5% to rof would be so hilariously overpowered.


I disagree with the 10% armor hp per level
As then you have to choose which bonus to use and you cannot use all 4 bonuses, altho a 5% damage per level to heavy drones might be an alternative to giving the slot stolen from the eos
Tho I still stand by my 5/5/7 eos
Allows active tanking with enough mids for cap boosterx2 web point mwd, equal tank to te Astarte but weaker dps slightly, but not by too much

Btw a rail Astarte will be doing more dps than an eos attemtping to use berserkers by about 135 dps, and can instantly switch targets and apply damage immediately... The eos under any circumstances seems to be vastly inferior in any roll, eos needs a further buff to come back into line with the other commandships
Either make it 5/5/7 or change the tracking for hybrids changed to 5% to heavy drone damage and hp
I will continue to stand by a 5/5/7 eos as it makes it possible to buffer it for super large fleets tho not as effectively as damnation ofc
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1286 - 2013-08-12 22:41:07 UTC
please fozzie,give claymore one damage to hm and ham instead of 2x bonuses to rof.
Net7
MyLeftArmy
#1287 - 2013-08-12 22:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Net7
Nighthawk
"Slot layout: 7 H, 5 M, 5 L , 2 turrets (+1), 5 Launchers (-1)"

So... anyone wanna buy my Nighthawk?

My fit is now screwed... even with the increase for missile skills the loss of a launcher kills it, not its not fit for SOLO... OR Fleet comps... like many other's have said, Caldari gets the shaft once again
TekGnosis
Rules of Acquisition
#1288 - 2013-08-12 22:51:36 UTC
Sux that there is no combination of Armor and Skirmish. :(

There were a bunch of changes recently specifically geared toward increasing the mobility of armor. e.g. AAR, 800/400mm plate mass reductions, removal of speed penalties for active rigs, etc etc.

So what ship exactly is it I'm supposed to FC in for AHAC again? You know, the ones I'm wanting to give Armor and Skirmish links to?

I 'get' flavor differences between races etc etc, but why aren't these just '3% bonus to warfare links'...
Balzac Legazou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1289 - 2013-08-12 23:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Balzac Legazou
Ersahi Kir wrote:
It's pretty obvious that they wanted to avoid giving it a sentry bonus because sentries are flavor of the month


Not just of the month; they're objectively better than other combat drone types in most situations, and have been for a long time. Which is a bit silly; the peak of the drone skill tree is when you get drones that actually function as turrets. Roll

Part of the problem with (real, moving, non-sentry) drones is the UI, but (although they are making some superficial improvements to it) there don't seem to be any plans to overhaul that.

If they want drones to remain stupid, slow, and hard to control (so they get destroyed often), they need to give ships much bigger drone bays, or get rid of drone bays and let players launch them from the normal cargo hold. With that change, I guess the "treat drones as ammo" philosophy can make sense. Until then, heavies just move too slowly and die too easily to justify using them instead of sentries.

Heavy drones often get killed before they even reach their target, and in less time than it takes them to react to the "recall" command (i.e., before they even turn back, let alone dock).
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#1290 - 2013-08-12 23:03:20 UTC
TekGnosis wrote:
Sux that there is no combination of Armor and Skirmish. :(

There were a bunch of changes recently specifically geared toward increasing the mobility of armor. e.g. AAR, 800/400mm plate mass reductions, removal of speed penalties for active rigs, etc etc.

So what ship exactly is it I'm supposed to FC in for AHAC again? You know, the ones I'm wanting to give Armor and Skirmish links to?

I 'get' flavor differences between races etc etc, but why aren't these just '3% bonus to warfare links'...


according to OP astarte and eos have armor and skirmish bonus

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1291 - 2013-08-12 23:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
So the general Idea I'm hearing is an Eos with:

300 drone bay

100 bandwidth

+1 drone controlled per level
+ 10% to drone mwd speed and tracking

+ 10% to HP and drone damage
+ 10% to armor HP

Would make it inline with all the other commands where it's fierce against frigs and cruisers but somewhat lacking against BS. Give's it 3 flights of medium drones, but limits heavy drone use completely... (4 tops because of bandwidth).

Justifies the -1 slot b/c of the additional drones/capabilities

Solves the issues with it's terribad HPs

Still susceptible to smartbomb counters, especially on BS.



Sounds reasonable, and actually makes the EOS unique. Could also shift around some of the high slots to lows or mediums... or change the bonus to allow it to fit drone control units so that it has to choose between DPS and gang links like all the rest of the commands.


Ship also isn't great for large fleets b/c it has no sentry bonus.... so the lag issue with too many drones on field isn't really there.

Would top out just under 800 dps with 10 medium drones, 3 DDAs and perfect skills, but lets face it, mediums are really easy to pop....and it's still under the dps of an Astarte by a long shot.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1292 - 2013-08-12 23:19:33 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
So the general Idea I'm hearing is an Eos with:

300 drone bay

100 bandwidth

+1 drone controlled per level
+ 10% to drone mwd speed and tracking

+ 10% to HP and drone damage
+ 10% to Armor HP

Would top out just under 800 dps with 10 medium drones, 3 DDAs and perfect skills, but lets face it, mediums are really easy to pop....and it's still under the dps of an Astarte by a long shot.

The funny thing about medium drones, is they do exactly 1/2 the damage of a large drone. So 10 medium drones do the exact same damage as 5 large drones just not as much HP as large drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1293 - 2013-08-12 23:42:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
So the general Idea I'm hearing is an Eos with:

300 drone bay

100 bandwidth

+1 drone controlled per level
+ 10% to drone mwd speed and tracking

+ 10% to HP and drone damage
+ 10% to Armor HP

Would top out just under 800 dps with 10 medium drones, 3 DDAs and perfect skills, but lets face it, mediums are really easy to pop....and it's still under the dps of an Astarte by a long shot.

The funny thing about medium drones, is they do exactly 1/2 the damage of a large drone. So 10 medium drones do the exact same damage as 5 large drones just not as much HP as large drones.



Yes, but they're also twice as fast and better tracking.

and with 10 drones, you can mix in some neuts/webs/ecm drones effectively to compensate for the lost slot.
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1294 - 2013-08-12 23:53:23 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
So the general Idea I'm hearing is an Eos with:

300 drone bay

100 bandwidth

+1 drone controlled per level
+ 10% to drone mwd speed and tracking

+ 10% to HP and drone damage
+ 10% to Armor HP

Would top out just under 800 dps with 10 medium drones, 3 DDAs and perfect skills, but lets face it, mediums are really easy to pop....and it's still under the dps of an Astarte by a long shot.

The funny thing about medium drones, is they do exactly 1/2 the damage of a large drone. So 10 medium drones do the exact same damage as 5 large drones just not as much HP as large drones.



Yes, but they're also twice as fast and better tracking.

and with 10 drones, you can mix in some neuts/webs/ecm drones effectively to compensate for the lost slot.


I don't like the idea of going with a 10% hp per level, in terms of drone boats we only have one active tanker and I'd love to see another along side of the myrmidon, and in terms of 10 hammerheads they would need to change the 10% speed and tracking to just scout drones and add in a 5% per level to scout drones for this to be worth the -1 slot
And it would be unique but I'd still rather see a 5/5/7 eos with its current bonuses at the moment
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1295 - 2013-08-13 00:06:21 UTC
Also on the note of the claymore it currently has 8.8888 effective turrets
Which seems a little low
But the vulture also has about 7.5
Could switch a 5% rof to 10% damage and get 10 effective turrets
And maybe change the one range bonus to a 5% damage 5% optimal or falloff combined bonus
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1296 - 2013-08-13 00:43:27 UTC
Just been on sisi to test the new Eos and Astarte. I am nonplussed. The problem is the lack of low slots and the explosive hole. You just can't get enough tank on there (using 1 slot for a damage mod) for the ship to be viable.

These ships will not see the light of day on tranquility unless this is fixed.

Disappointing.

As before, the Sleipnir has an amazing omni tank and puts huge amounts of damage into the explosive hole of any armour ship. As before, it's OP in comparison. (for the record, I have skills for both, but would like the choice of whether to armour or shield tank on TQ).

In terms of balance, nothing has changed.

Perhaps the new local rep buffs have not made it onto the test server? If so, perhaps when that's fixed these ships have half a chance of being useful, but to be honest it does not look like they will.

b0rked, unuasble. All that design effort is wasted. These ships will sit on the market gathering dust.

For the record, I used the 2 utility highs for nosferatus to top up the aneamic cap recharger. This is the only way to run 2 armour repairers. Fitting just 1 armour rep means a certain and swift death. I used to use this trick for the ishtar - of course now I can't so the ishtar can't self rep any more (it used to be ok at this).

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1297 - 2013-08-13 02:01:51 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Perhaps the new local rep buffs have not made it onto the test server? If so, perhaps when that's fixed these ships have half a chance of being useful, but to be honest it does not look like they will.

b0rked, unuasble. All that design effort is wasted. These ships will sit on the market gathering dust.

For the record, I used the 2 utility highs for nosferatus to top up the aneamic cap recharger. This is the only way to run 2 armour repairers. Fitting just 1 armour rep means a certain and swift death. I used to use this trick for the ishtar - of course now I can't so the ishtar can't self rep any more (it used to be ok at this).



Use a cap booster. You can easily fit two T2 meds on an ishtar filled with 400s each to give some constant recharge. Also can't say I experienced any issues with a single cap booster on an MAR+AMAR setup.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1298 - 2013-08-13 02:26:32 UTC
Net7 wrote:
Nighthawk
"Slot layout: 7 H, 5 M, 5 L , 2 turrets (+1), 5 Launchers (-1)"

So... anyone wanna buy my Nighthawk?

My fit is now screwed... even with the increase for missile skills the loss of a launcher kills it, not its not fit for SOLO... OR Fleet comps... like many other's have said, Caldari gets the shaft once again


The loss of a launcher doesn't kill it now. It did in the first proposal, because it did absolutely laughable damage with non-kinetic missiles. But they changed the bonuses so that now it'll do the same amount of damage as now with non-kinetic, and do more with kinetic missiles. If anything it'll make it slightly easier to fit.

The problem is that the Claymore is better than it in almost every way, one of the biggest being slot layout. I can't even say it's like Raven vs. Typhoon here because they're both shield ships, and the Claymore just completely outperforms the Nighthawk in terms of defense capability, speed, and being able to choose damage types. Not to mention, the Claymore has more space for drones. The Nighthawk might still see use in missions vs. Guristas but that's literally it- I can't see people choosing it over the vulture for anything PvP related. Or choosing it at all, really.
DEATHS PHOENIX
Zervas Aeronautics
#1299 - 2013-08-13 03:14:47 UTC
Valfreyea wrote:
Just got on Sisi to test the Eos.

Fozzie, could you explain the point of the hybrid tracking bonus when your ship only has four turrets? Also, even with a speed bonus, the heavies are still hilariously slow, and rather easy to kill.

Combined with the limited dronebay (unless your enemies are new to this game, you're going to lose a lot of heavies, fast), I don't really understand the point of making the Eos a weaker brawler when compared to the Astarte. Rather, shouldn't it be give a different role?

Or something more interesting, like perhaps the ability to field more drones per level, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

Perhaps give a double bonus, replacing the hybrid tracking with another 7.5% to Heavy Drone speed and perhaps RoF?

Haven't seen a bonus for drone RoF, so it'd be something new at least :p



Uh... yeaH!
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1300 - 2013-08-13 03:23:45 UTC
Let's just agree overall these changes are slightly underwhelming, I'm still a cites about what will happen to them but for the most part I'm worried about these ships, sleipnir will most likely continue to rule, Astarte will have its role, same with vulte(only for large fleets as a booster) and damnation for basically the same thing, claymore needs a small damage buff and nighthawk needs another mid(I forget how it's dps is), abso should get a tracking bonus instead of te cap bonus, vulture should have one optimal range bonus changed to 5% damage and optimal, and eos needs it stolen slot back, or much better bonuses(change turret tracking to 5% heavy drone damage and hp.... Which puts it still weaker than an Astarte but atleast comparable..... Still rather see a 5/5/7 eos tho, basically a giant myrm.... Well, t2 myrm)
We are moving in the right direction with the changes but still a little ways to go