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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1261 - 2013-08-12 14:13:47 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Drones are not short range.
Please compare to a rail astarte.


Clearly sir, you have only used heavy drones in PVE.

The are absolutely short range only. You absolutely have to have webbed your target for them to even to stay near him, and in a small-scale skirmish they are the absolutely target of choice for your enemy since he know that once they are dead you can't hurt him at all. Thus, you have to be within 2.5km of them at all times so you can recall them the moment they receive the slightest brush of damage.

Sentry drones are medium range (aka railguns), or long range on a ship with the specific range bonus (the Dominix).

Unfortunately, sentry drones suck (to a degree) for skirmish PVP (this ship's apparent role) because once you've deployed them you either can't move (i.e. not skirmishing) or you have to kiss goodbye to 5M isk and half your offensive capability when you leave them behind.


Its a command ship, you are in a gang.
Maybe your tackle ships should have scram/web.

Drones damage is going to be balanced at max effective range along with other long systems such as missile , which btw are also more effective if your target is webbed down.

Asking for blaster levels of damage from a drone boat that can if it wishes apply its damage from 50km away is unreasonable.



The eos in this proposed conditions a heavy drone ship. Aka ogres bersekers etc
Not sentries, te domi is a sentry boat, it gets tracking and range for them
The eos gets speed and tracking to heavies, which even with this change go about 1.3-1.4km/s
Which is rediculously slow if you want to apply damage to something 20, 30, 40km+
Further more heavies simply cannot apply damage to things that arnt webbed, they won't catch up as they orbit too slowly and will get out of range every 5 seconds

The eos is a close range brawling drone ship, not a kiter or sniper, it's resiculous they took a slot away form the eos while giving double 10% damage bonuses out like candy
The eos needs to be brought bak into line with the other cs's
Leave it's bonuses as is and make it
5 highs 4 blasters
5 mids
7 lows





All the cs ships have 10 mid/low slots for damage modding and tank.
Why would EOS get an extra 2 ?

Note before complaining about fewer highs that fewer high slots are a consequnce of the Damage from drones which dont need highs like turrets/bays

I think berserkers approaching 2k/s with speed mod will get firepower down at range no problem at all espcially assigned to tackle af's its gonna be rapidley lethal to non brick bc and down.

Remember CS are no solopwnmobiles.




None of these cs's are. And if you do that then you are wasting a valuable mid, and even with that heavies don't have the damage projection you claim, you need to be on your target to web and scram your target or heavies will never be effective. And why make everything such a conformative blob of Internet space pixels, diversity is good, and my major point is the eos should not have a slot taken away when other ships are getting double 10% damage bonuses, the Astarte does more damage with no damage mods than the eos with a drone damage amp, so the current proposed eos is now 2 slots behind the Astarte and still not doing the same damage, and no I'm not sayon the Astarte is op, or the eos should have different bonuses
I like the current Astarte and the current eos bonuses, but the way they are you cannot gimp the eos by taking a slot away
The eos needs 5 mids and 7 lows to be an effective active armor tanker
Even with 5 mids any neuts will be sitting off your reps fairly easily
With 4 it will kill you flat out
If they intend on keeping the eos' slots the same (which I hope they don't...)
They would need to roll a second drone damage bonus in somewhere

It's pretty obvious where they see the eos, a close range small gang active tanked brawler
That's why they have it getting a bonus to heavies and not sentries or scout drones, and an active tanked bonus
But the current iteration is not effective at the moment
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1262 - 2013-08-12 14:44:00 UTC
Now that the Warfair link has been moved into the command ship skills per lvl, it would be nice to give them some sort of roll bonus [like a MWD cap usage deduction bonus]

:) I know im just wishing on a star but whatever
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1263 - 2013-08-12 15:27:50 UTC
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:

None of these cs's are. And if you do that then you are wasting a valuable mid, and even with that heavies don't have the damage projection you claim, you need to be on your target to web and scram your target or heavies will never be effective. And why make everything such a conformative blob of Internet space pixels, diversity is good, and my major point is the eos should not have a slot taken away when other ships are getting double 10% damage bonuses, the Astarte does more damage with no damage mods than the eos with a drone damage amp, so the current proposed eos is now 2 slots behind the Astarte and still not doing the same damage, and no I'm not sayon the Astarte is op, or the eos should have different bonuses
I like the current Astarte and the current eos bonuses, but the way they are you cannot gimp the eos by taking a slot away
The eos needs 5 mids and 7 lows to be an effective active armor tanker
Even with 5 mids any neuts will be sitting off your reps fairly easily
With 4 it will kill you flat out
If they intend on keeping the eos' slots the same (which I hope they don't...)
They would need to roll a second drone damage bonus in somewhere

It's pretty obvious where they see the eos, a close range small gang active tanked brawler
That's why they have it getting a bonus to heavies and not sentries or scout drones, and an active tanked bonus
But the current iteration is not effective at the moment


Your working from the misconception that you have to do your own web / scram.
This has not been the case for 10 years.

Berserkers whiping around the battle field at 2k/s onto team mate tackeled targets gives the EOS the ability to project significant damage while staying out of harms way.

I don't understand why you think the EOS is meant to be a brawler.
The Astarte is the brawler of the Gallente line.
Like you said diversity is good , why would both gallente ships be dedicated brawlers ?
The drone MWD bonus clearly indicates boosting projected damage not brawler damage.

The only reason it has lost a high slot is because it has gained damage from drones.
This is typical of all drone boats. all drone boats have fewer highs than non drone boats.



Gummi Worm
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1264 - 2013-08-12 15:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gummi Worm
...
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1265 - 2013-08-12 16:34:07 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:


...snip...

The only reason it has lost a high slot is because it has gained damage from drones.
This is typical of all drone boats. all drone boats have fewer highs than non drone boats.


... for no good reason at all.

There used to be a point to this, many years ago when you were able to field more than 5 drones at once.

The size of drone bay (beyond 125m) was a factor in determining drone damage output. These days this is not the case. The extra drone bay size no longer means extra damage, just spare drones. Therefore in my view the dedicated drone ships need not suffer the loss of a high slot.

Drone battlecruisers have always lagged behind in the dps stakes, which makes them undesirable. This is not the case with the new cruisers. The the cruiser drone ships compete well on DPS with the turret versions.

Currently the EOS has been used even less than the astarte in pvp (read: only a fool would do so). It needs to be competitive, otherwise why waste the effort designing it? No-one will ever build one, let alone use it in combat.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1266 - 2013-08-12 16:55:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


...snip...

The only reason it has lost a high slot is because it has gained damage from drones.
This is typical of all drone boats. all drone boats have fewer highs than non drone boats.


... for no good reason at all.

There used to be a point to this, many years ago when you were able to field more than 5 drones at once.

The size of drone bay (beyond 125m) was a factor in determining drone damage output. These days this is not the case. The extra drone bay size no longer means extra damage, just spare drones. Therefore in my view the dedicated drone ships need not suffer the loss of a high slot.

Drone battlecruisers have always lagged behind in the dps stakes, which makes them undesirable. This is not the case with the new cruisers. The the cruiser drone ships compete well on DPS with the turret versions.

Currently the EOS has been used even less than the astarte in pvp (read: only a fool would do so). It needs to be competitive, otherwise why waste the effort designing it? No-one will ever build one, let alone use it in combat.


Every drone ship that has been rebalanced has 1 less module slot. Even the cruisers.

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's consistent with everything that's been rebalanced in the last year or so.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1267 - 2013-08-12 17:03:18 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


...snip...

The only reason it has lost a high slot is because it has gained damage from drones.
This is typical of all drone boats. all drone boats have fewer highs than non drone boats.


... for no good reason at all.

There used to be a point to this, many years ago when you were able to field more than 5 drones at once.


Ahh, this is the part where we ignore Drone Interfacing, the skill that used to let you field more drones but was instead changed to make your drones more effective by the same amount at each level.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:


The size of drone bay (beyond 125m) was a factor in determining drone damage output. These days this is not the case. The extra drone bay size no longer means extra damage, just spare drones. Therefore in my view the dedicated drone ships need not suffer the loss of a high slot.



Yeah, I'd much rather they just removed the extra bay so I can have spare drones, and only gave me one set than having a bunch of spares just in case.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1268 - 2013-08-12 17:27:31 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Ahh, this is the part where we ignore Drone Interfacing, the skill that used to let you field more drones but was instead changed to make your drones more effective by the same amount at each level.



No sir, I am not ignoring drone interfacing. This skill affects all ships, not just drone ships. So it turns out that after this skill was introduced, all non-drone ships had their drones doubled in power while drone ships were no more or less powerful than before (dps-wise anyway).

It does not of course affect web, ecm, neutraliser, target painter, sensor dampening or remote repair drones.

What this skill did was actually a 50dps buff to gun/missile ships with 25m drone bays and a 75dps buf to ships with 50m drone bays, and a relative nerf to drone ships (EWAR drones now halved in number and therefore power and versatility).

The drone ships should get an extra mid slot in return to replace the ewar capability they have lost. They absolutely should not lose a slot.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#1269 - 2013-08-12 17:29:49 UTC
Hello guys,

overall its nice to see some changes on the lovely commandships BUT:

Why are you boosting the Field Command Ships so hard by giving them more resistances, armor or shield hp and more damage and the abylity to use gangmodules with bonuses too, in comparison to the Fleet Command Ships? They get like nothing...

Untill now i thought
Fleet Cs = strong fleet-boni and good tank
and
Field CS = High Damage and decent tank
The two ships are like equal with the changes, i really dont get it...

Why are u nerfing the gang modules so hard?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1270 - 2013-08-12 17:35:15 UTC
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
[...] diversity is good, and my major point is the eos should not have a slot taken away when other ships are getting double 10% damage bonuses, the Astarte does more damage with no damage mods than the eos with a drone damage amp, so the current proposed eos is now 2 slots behind the Astarte and still not doing the same damage, and no I'm not sayon the Astarte is op, or the eos should have different bonuses


Don't forget that you only need to fit two DDAs to profit. The Astarte needs magstabs AND med blasters. So while the Astarte does x dps, 0.8x with 4 guns and 3 links, 0.6x with 4 links etc., the eos just does *this much*, no matter how your mids/lows look like. Edit: mids/highs... sure, ignore the lows on a droneboat Roll
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1271 - 2013-08-12 19:21:14 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
[...] diversity is good, and my major point is the eos should not have a slot taken away when other ships are getting double 10% damage bonuses, the Astarte does more damage with no damage mods than the eos with a drone damage amp, so the current proposed eos is now 2 slots behind the Astarte and still not doing the same damage, and no I'm not sayon the Astarte is op, or the eos should have different bonuses


Don't forget that you only need to fit two DDAs to profit. The Astarte needs magstabs AND med blasters. So while the Astarte does x dps, 0.8x with 4 guns and 3 links, 0.6x with 4 links etc., the eos just does *this much*, no matter how your mids/lows look like. Edit: mids/highs... sure, ignore the lows on a droneboat Roll



The eos does lose dps from having 3 or 4 links, but 1: if they are fielding that many links, their goal is tank and survivabily not dps
And 2: it has more damage to begin with and with 3 links they the Astarte does more dps still if my math is correct

Another note the ships that have -1 slot can compete with the standard ships in damage and tank potentials, they are balanced
The eos here is not balanced, therefor it needs another lowslot lot or better bonuses (this imbalance is from the double 10% damage bonuses) I would rather see another low

And yes diversity is good, which is why I wat a high end active armor tanked drone boat, which we don't have, only a myrm

And another note drones have worse damage application due to flight times of the drones than missiles, and with bersekers your damage is pretty bad, I can't recall the exact number of dps but ogre 2's do 475 dps and I think berserkers do between 375-400
Which even with the nice bonus and mids going to drone navigation modules, it still has poor damage projection from the very way drones work, there's a reason people used sentries, and since ccp wants this ship as a brawler they didn't gve the sentries the bonus they need to be effective and have good damage projection

Which I go back to close range brawler, which is sub par, which is not balanced

I go back to 5/5/7 slot layout, which is what an active armor brawler needs, enough mids for the cap, whic is required now that neuts are even more prevelent, still weak vs them just not instant death to them, and te lows for tank/gank
5 highs and 4 guns just puts it in an interesting position when u want to put on links, and seeing how it does not have ancillary weapons like a couple of missile launchers like the Astarte I think it works out fine
Balzac Legazou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1272 - 2013-08-12 19:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Balzac Legazou
Florian Kuehne wrote:

Why are you boosting the Field Command Ships so hard [...] the abylity to use gangmodules with bonuses too, in comparison to the Fleet Command Ships? [...] The two ships are like equal with the changes, i really dont get it...


Me neither. All the dev posts here seem to ignore the fact that there are two different kinds of command ships (and there doesn't seem to be any sense of identity for them). Maybe they're trying to get rid of fleet command ships entirely, and just don't want to say it explicitly?

The most ironic thing, of course, is that those two sub-classes would be perfect to solve the complaint most people have about the currently proposed changes:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3461970#post3461970

Additionally, fleet command ships should have some benefit in terms of links (either 1 more link or a stronger bonus to the links).
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1273 - 2013-08-12 19:43:46 UTC
Balzac Legazou wrote:
Florian Kuehne wrote:

Why are you boosting the Field Command Ships so hard [...] the abylity to use gangmodules with bonuses too, in comparison to the Fleet Command Ships? [...] The two ships are like equal with the changes, i really dont get it...


Me neither. All the dev posts here seem to ignore the fact that there are two different kinds of command ships (and there doesn't seem to be any sense of identity for them). Maybe they're trying to get rid of fleet command ships entirely, and just don't want to say it explicitly?

The most ironic thing, of course, is that those two sub-classes would be perfect to solve the complaint most people have about the currently proposed changes:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3461970#post3461970

Additionally, fleet command ships should have some benefit in terms of links (either 1 more link or a stronger bonus to the links).

Yes they did hit rid of the two types of command ships, and they were very spoken about it the re-balancing the future dev blog.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#1274 - 2013-08-12 19:45:49 UTC
jeah true words, i thought the same about taking the Fleet Command Ship away Sad

In fact commandships by now are good and quite decent ships but need a bit of balancing like SMALL Damage buffs and SMALL utiltiy possibilities, just to give one example - and not buffing all stuff to the heaven Roll

The new Field CS will melt like every ship...
Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#1275 - 2013-08-12 19:50:41 UTC
Just to mention something from the past.

As the Eos was pretty damn hard, cause of the fact to launch 5 heavy drones and using lots of turrets. You nerfed it from step to step and now the monster awakes again Attention
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1276 - 2013-08-12 20:11:26 UTC
Florian Kuehne wrote:
Just to mention something from the past.

As the Eos was pretty damn hard, cause of the fact to launch 5 heavy drones and using lots of turrets. You nerfed it from step to step and now the monster awakes again Attention


Except it doesn't, not quite, this current eos is not as good as the old
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1277 - 2013-08-12 20:15:42 UTC
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
Florian Kuehne wrote:
Just to mention something from the past.

As the Eos was pretty damn hard, cause of the fact to launch 5 heavy drones and using lots of turrets. You nerfed it from step to step and now the monster awakes again Attention


Except it doesn't, not quite, this current eos is not as good as the old


You, sir, have slighted CCP's e-honour. The 5% tracking on 4 medium hybrid turrets is surely a mighty advantage over anything that has come before.

I think we shall settle this with pistols at dawn.
Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#1278 - 2013-08-12 20:17:13 UTC
jeah not 100% but it goes in the right direction:
- more drone bandwith&dronebay&damage
- more hp (i think more as the origional beast)
- more sensor strength (even more as the origional beast)
- less mass, better targeting
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#1279 - 2013-08-12 20:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Storm Novah
Just went on Sisi to check out the CS changes. I have found that after dropping the 2 turrets from my sleipnir I still couldn't fit my ship as I did before the changes as I didn't have enough cpu and more than enough pg. When looking over the thread afterward I see that the cpu was dropped by 50 from the sleipnir while the other command ships only lost as much as 25 cpu and a couple of them were actually given more. I think the 50 cpu drop on the sleipnir is a bit much... and think the 25 cpu drop that lines up with the other ships would be more appropriate.
Valfreyea
Zervas Aeronautics
The Bastion
#1280 - 2013-08-12 20:59:25 UTC
Just got on Sisi to test the Eos.

Fozzie, could you explain the point of the hybrid tracking bonus when your ship only has four turrets? Also, even with a speed bonus, the heavies are still hilariously slow, and rather easy to kill.

Combined with the limited dronebay (unless your enemies are new to this game, you're going to lose a lot of heavies, fast), I don't really understand the point of making the Eos a weaker brawler when compared to the Astarte. Rather, shouldn't it be give a different role?

Or something more interesting, like perhaps the ability to field more drones per level, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

Perhaps give a double bonus, replacing the hybrid tracking with another 7.5% to Heavy Drone speed and perhaps RoF?

Haven't seen a bonus for drone RoF, so it'd be something new at least :p