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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Author
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1321 - 2013-08-13 15:49:17 UTC
Rowells wrote:

if the ASB goes then so does the 1600mm plate. Shield ships dont have any equivalent.


Large shield extender II is the equivalent. It gives fewer ehp but does not have the drawback of slowing the ship down.

It also does not take up a valuable low slot, allowing the LSE-fitter to fit more damage mods.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1322 - 2013-08-13 15:49:37 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
is it just me that wants the sleipnir to be armour tanked with armour link?
There are plenty of minmatar ships that are armour tanked so why not represent this correctly in the command ships?

I have literally never thought of this concept. ever.

would definitely fit along the lines of "mionmatar versatility".

only thing i don't like is this would provide many more options for armor tanking than for shield

would it be bad to ask for a gallente ship to be Shield tanked as well?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1323 - 2013-08-13 15:51:14 UTC
accidental double post.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1324 - 2013-08-13 15:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Acidictadpole wrote:


No, I'm not asking for them to be left alone completely. Right now there's about as much reason to fly a command ship as a HAC. T3 do better links and are better at surviving with a decent fit.



I dno about you but i've found the new CS to be about as effective as you can get for solo/small scale. While this is not the pigeonholed fleet brick links ship many of the powerblocks are pushing for, there is most certainly a reason to fly them...

I'm not saying that there is not room for improvement, or anything wrong with dedicating 1 of the 2 racial ships to "fleet boosting" but... You are very much Over exaggerating their uselessness.


From what you're able to fit them up for, looks like: (personal impression)

abso/sleip/astarte - well suitable dps ships, appear to be not the premier choices for boosting on-grid in comparison to the competition

claymore/eos - well suitable to boost 3-10man fleets with nearly no logi (like that random oni/scimi at max, or some spidering)

nighthawk - looks like a boosting ship for considerable small or medium sized fleets, given it still massively contributes to gang dps at close range and has quite a lot of buffer, very solid buffer when neglecting a point, and (given you got a second nighthawk along) the sensor-integrity-link is pretty badass in the situation it will be fielded. I believe.

vulture - 6 midslots, t2 resists, resistance bonus, loads of PG. Doesn't nearly have the nighthawk's dps.
same for damnation - still the best brick avaiable, sucks hard at anything but linking or bait
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1325 - 2013-08-13 15:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


The astarte *just about* out-tanks a dual ASB sleipnir when the astarte pilot is in a fleet with gang links and the sleipnir is not.



That Astarte of mine you fought was not linked :P. Just pills, implants, and t2 rigs.

Overheated explosive hardener + increase to the kinetic resistance means your firing into a resistance wall (if you used hail). If there was faction EMP, I think things would have been a bit different. 6 lowslot Gallente active tankers will most probably have an em hole unless you decide to bail on the dmg mod. In the end that particular 1v1 (astarte vs sleipnir) is all about cap charge management, which the astarte is better at as you can pretty much run a single repper forever with 2x nos and no cap booster.


Either way, it will be interesting to see what these ships do with deadspace mods, links, and all the other jazz. 3K tanks will most certainly be possible.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1326 - 2013-08-13 16:05:03 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Either way, it will be interesting to see what these ships do with deadspace mods, links, and all the other jazz. 3K tanks will most certainly be possible.


Guess 2k is doable with standard drugs and ganglinks, using c-types for the rep and T2 for resistances. Cool thing you can link (with at least one more guy in system) yourself :)
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#1327 - 2013-08-13 16:07:47 UTC
Hello Fozzie,


Please force your graphics-slaves into making:

Harbinger as Damnation base hull
Myrmidon as Eos base hull

I don't care about the others.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1328 - 2013-08-13 16:12:17 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Hello Fozzie,


Please force your graphics-slaves into making:

Harbinger as Damnation base hull
Myrmidon as Eos base hull

I don't care about the others.


The myrm = eos last I heard, but I think the absolution is going to the harbinger hull.

Sorry.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1329 - 2013-08-13 16:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


The astarte *just about* out-tanks a dual ASB sleipnir when the astarte pilot is in a fleet with gang links and the sleipnir is not.



That Astarte of mine you fought was not linked :P. Just pills, implants, and t2 rigs.

Overheated explosive hardener + increase to the kinetic resistance means your firing into a resistance wall (if you used hail). If there was faction EMP, I think things would have been a bit different. 6 lowslot Gallente active tankers will most probably have an em hole unless you decide to bail on the dmg mod. In the end that particular 1v1 (astarte vs sleipnir) is all about cap charge management, which the astarte is better at as you can pretty much run a single repper forever with 2x nos and no cap booster.


Either way, it will be interesting to see what these ships do with deadspace mods, links, and all the other jazz. 3K tanks will most certainly be possible.


Anticipating the gaping EM hole on a 6-low armour ship, I looked for Faction EMP on the market prior but it had not been seeded.

I have to be honest, I'm beginning to calm down about the 2 gallente command ships as skirmish leaders. It looks like they'll do OK in a small gang, as long as they don't meet a larger one.

The Astarte has to be the preferred choice, as before. The Eos just can't get enough damage down, and those drones are so vulnerable...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1330 - 2013-08-13 16:26:17 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


The astarte *just about* out-tanks a dual ASB sleipnir when the astarte pilot is in a fleet with gang links and the sleipnir is not.



That Astarte of mine you fought was not linked :P. Just pills, implants, and t2 rigs.

Overheated explosive hardener + increase to the kinetic resistance means your firing into a resistance wall (if you used hail). If there was faction EMP, I think things would have been a bit different. 6 lowslot Gallente active tankers will most probably have an em hole unless you decide to bail on the dmg mod. In the end that particular 1v1 (astarte vs sleipnir) is all about cap charge management, which the astarte is better at as you can pretty much run a single repper forever with 2x nos and no cap booster.


Either way, it will be interesting to see what these ships do with deadspace mods, links, and all the other jazz. 3K tanks will most certainly be possible.


Anticipating the gaping EM hole on a 6-low armour ship, I looked for Faction EMP on the market prior but it had not been seeded.

I have to be honest, I'm beginning to calm down about the 2 gallente command ships as skirmish leaders. It looks like they'll do OK in a small gang, as long as they don't meet a larger one.

The Astarte has to be the preferred choice, as before. The Eos just can't get enough damage down, and those drones are so vulnerable...



No doubt man. Your last point is the reason that I don't want to see the eos left as it is. It needs to have some type of advantage over the astarte and right now there really is little to no point. A 5th mid for another cap booster would be a good start giving it the "option" of fielding a tri rep tank with full tackle...
Acidictadpole
Perkone
Caldari State
#1331 - 2013-08-13 16:48:42 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Acidictadpole wrote:


No, I'm not asking for them to be left alone completely. Right now there's about as much reason to fly a command ship as a HAC. T3 do better links and are better at surviving with a decent fit.



I dno about you but i've found the new CS to be about as effective as you can get for solo/small scale. While this is not the pigeonholed fleet brick links ship many of the powerblocks are pushing for, there is most certainly a reason to fly them...

I'm not saying that there is not room for improvement, or anything wrong with dedicating 1 of the 2 racial ships to "fleet boosting" but... You are very much Over exaggerating their uselessness.


And that's about as much a reason to fly a HAC, if I recall. They're decent upgrades per pilot, but not quite worth their isk in abilities.

But in the same vein, why wouldn't you just bring T3s instead of the command ships? They're smaller, perform similarly in damage, and often have a tank that rivals the CS. If the answer is price, then that's about the same for HACs.
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1332 - 2013-08-13 17:54:04 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


The astarte *just about* out-tanks a dual ASB sleipnir when the astarte pilot is in a fleet with gang links and the sleipnir is not.



That Astarte of mine you fought was not linked :P. Just pills, implants, and t2 rigs.

Overheated explosive hardener + increase to the kinetic resistance means your firing into a resistance wall (if you used hail). If there was faction EMP, I think things would have been a bit different. 6 lowslot Gallente active tankers will most probably have an em hole unless you decide to bail on the dmg mod. In the end that particular 1v1 (astarte vs sleipnir) is all about cap charge management, which the astarte is better at as you can pretty much run a single repper forever with 2x nos and no cap booster.


Either way, it will be interesting to see what these ships do with deadspace mods, links, and all the other jazz. 3K tanks will most certainly be possible.


Anticipating the gaping EM hole on a 6-low armour ship, I looked for Faction EMP on the market prior but it had not been seeded.

I have to be honest, I'm beginning to calm down about the 2 gallente command ships as skirmish leaders. It looks like they'll do OK in a small gang, as long as they don't meet a larger one.

The Astarte has to be the preferred choice, as before. The Eos just can't get enough damage down, and those drones are so vulnerable...


It goes beyond te fact heavy drones are vulnerable, it's also the factthey stole a slot away, even if it got a 7th low and you put on a drone damage amp and all else was an equal it, Astarte wins out over the eos quite handily, the Astarte does more damage with no damage mods
Add in how stacking works and you see that the Astarte is even better than a 6/4/7 eos
Making the eos 5/5/7 makes it subpar in some parts and ways but better in others as it has an extra mid, and can put together a nice buffer for large fleets.
I'm loathed to say to put a 7th low on an Astarte as it starts with such a huge amount of dps 870 with no mods or implants
While at the moment the eos is at 702, yes the eos is getting buffed yes the proposed eos is better than the current eos, but that is not balanced, it is still subpar, and I'm looking forward to see what fizzle says about these ships
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1333 - 2013-08-13 18:14:11 UTC
I am loving the new deimos. It's gone from being a lightweight retreat ship to a real heavy assault ship. A swarm of these will be deadly.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1334 - 2013-08-13 18:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I am loving the new deimos. It's gone from being a lightweight retreat ship to a real heavy assault ship. A swarm of these will be deadly.


Yeah, they are very effective. The combination of smallish sig and a rep bonus gives the deimos an amazing tank, even if it's lacking ehp compared to similarly fit Commands. I look at the deimos now as a slightly lower dps, higher tank, lower ehp, much faster/smaller Brutix.

P.S. I just watched Mournful Conciousness tank a couple vindis and a malestrom for a rather extended period of time in his deimos, ships doing pretty well Cool
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#1335 - 2013-08-13 20:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I am loving the new deimos. It's gone from being a lightweight retreat ship to a real heavy assault ship. A swarm of these will be deadly.


Yeah, they are very effective. The combination of smallish sig and a rep bonus gives the deimos an amazing tank, even if it's lacking ehp compared to similarly fit Commands. I look at the deimos now as a slightly lower dps, higher tank, lower ehp, much faster/smaller Brutix.

P.S. I just watched Mournful Conciousness tank a couple vindis and a malestrom for a rather extended period of time in his deimos, ships doing pretty well Cool


Although in fairness it has to be said that at the time I was under the influence of hard drugs, and had a command ship augmenting my movements. In addition, most people on Sisi in a vindicator are people who do not have the skills, money or courage to fly one on TQ :-)

Nevertheless, the ship has now become what I am sure it was always supposed to be: a hard-hitting, tough little annoying wasp of a cruiser. On it's own, not a huge threat to a properly fitted battleship, but in a group - utterly deadly.

When this ship comes out on TQ, there will be a steady stream of tears from wormhole ratters courtesy of this little star.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1336 - 2013-08-13 20:29:15 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I am loving the new deimos. It's gone from being a lightweight retreat ship to a real heavy assault ship. A swarm of these will be deadly.


Yeah, they are very effective. The combination of smallish sig and a rep bonus gives the deimos an amazing tank, even if it's lacking ehp compared to similarly fit Commands. I look at the deimos now as a slightly lower dps, higher tank, lower ehp, much faster/smaller Brutix.

P.S. I just watched Mournful Conciousness tank a couple vindis and a malestrom for a rather extended period of time in his deimos, ships doing pretty well Cool


It's rather hilarious that a deimos has the same tank as an Astarte or eos... I'd like to see the tank of the eos and Astarte better, but with te Astarte insane dps I can't justify it, but with the eos you can, as with 7 lows, and having an equal tank the eos has less gank still, or you can fit it with even less dps but more survivability,

A 5/5/7 eos can survive a decent amount of dps in a small gang, but will still melt to neuts

2 cap boosters and tri rep eos would have survivability but not the dps to become a solo pwn mobile
And is too large and slow to do some of the silly things the Deimos candiru it's mobility and sig radius

And I'm curious how well an xl+l asb fit claymore/sleipnir/vulture (idk if a nighthawk could fit them) would do tank wise
I know my xl+l asb cyclone is pretty awesome without crystals even, gonna get on the test server to play with those =]
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1337 - 2013-08-13 20:54:11 UTC
Word eldrith, HMU on test, I want to see what a claymore can do and sadly don't have the missiles skills maxed to make it viable for myself.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1338 - 2013-08-13 22:43:53 UTC
Claymore is a disaster on Sisi.
Just tried fitting one.

Forget it.

Needs about 85 more CPU to fit a shield buffer with 3 command links, 4 HAM's, and 3 T2 BCU's.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=269052&find=unread
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1339 - 2013-08-13 23:12:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
is it just me that wants the sleipnir to be armour tanked with armour link?
There are plenty of minmatar ships that are armour tanked so why not represent this correctly in the command ships?

FOZZIE

Come on the Fleet bc is a cane and the sleipnir is going to be a cane when you change them so why not make the change?
Or are you expecting people to have to use the Loki for bonused armour links?

Sleipnir:
Minmatar Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage (was 5% RoF)
5% Armour hitpoints
Command Ships skill bonuses:
10%(+5) bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
3% bonus to strength of Armoured Warfare and Skirmish Warfare links
Fixed Bonus:
Can fit up to three Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 4 M(-1), 6 L(+1), 5 turrets (-2), 2 Launchers (-1)
Fittings: 1300 PWG (-160), 425 CPU (-50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4500(+176) / 5000(+1166) / 3500(+137)
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 75(+12.5) / 60(+10) / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 90(+5) / 67.5(+8.13) / 25 / 10
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 2625 / 583s / 4.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 165 / 0.704 / 12800000(+300000) / 12.49s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-15) / 25(-15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km (+25) / 220 / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar (+4)
Signature radius: 240
Cargo capacity: 475



hell no where come those people from who want to change the awesome sleipnir ...
(inclueding those who want it to be an awfull cane modell)
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1340 - 2013-08-13 23:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I am loving the new deimos. It's gone from being a lightweight retreat ship to a real heavy assault ship. A swarm of these will be deadly.


Yeah, they are very effective. The combination of smallish sig and a rep bonus gives the deimos an amazing tank, even if it's lacking ehp compared to similarly fit Commands. I look at the deimos now as a slightly lower dps, higher tank, lower ehp, much faster/smaller Brutix.

P.S. I just watched Mournful Conciousness tank a couple vindis and a malestrom for a rather extended period of time in his deimos, ships doing pretty well Cool


It's rather hilarious that a deimos has the same tank as an Astarte or eos... I'd like to see the tank of the eos and Astarte better, but with te Astarte insane dps I can't justify it, but with the eos you can, as with 7 lows, and having an equal tank the eos has less gank still, or you can fit it with even less dps but more survivability,

A 5/5/7 eos can survive a decent amount of dps in a small gang, but will still melt to neuts

2 cap boosters and tri rep eos would have survivability but not the dps to become a solo pwn mobile
And is too large and slow to do some of the silly things the Deimos candiru it's mobility and sig radius

And I'm curious how well an xl+l asb fit claymore/sleipnir/vulture (idk if a nighthawk could fit them) would do tank wise
I know my xl+l asb cyclone is pretty awesome without crystals even, gonna get on the test server to play with those =]


Theses numbers without gang bonuses

Just did some tests on sisi

Both ships
2 links
med injector / mwd / scram / web
dual mar / dual eanm / dcu / explosive hard
anti em / aux nano


That's 77% exp lowest resist
562 ehps into that resist

Eos
5 Ogre II ( 466.5 dps ) + 4 neut blaster ( fnam 200 dps ) = 666.5 dps

Astarte
2 Ogre II ( 124.4 dps ) + 5 neut blaster ( fnam 491 dps ) = 615.4 dps
2 Ogre II ( 124.4 dps ) + 5 neut blasters ( void 547.9 dps ) = 672.3 dps


That's nice damage from the eos there given the better projection of drones even for a brawler setup

For an 7km orbit ( with linked scrams ) the dropoff of neuts is going to leave there contribution at about 75% navy and 50% void
This makes the Eos clearly better at the 4km - 10km brawler range.
Astarte has to be point blank to get better damage than the EOS.

EOS is fine.
Astarte could do with another 2 cpu to avoid downgrade of meta 4 scrams and webs to lower meta's

My skills not maxed , lvl 4 blaster spec and lvl 4 gal drone spec