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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1941 - 2013-08-12 16:48:57 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
The problem with the proposed Vaga is it is still too similar to the stabber and cynabal ... it has got the bonus to ASB but it still lacks EHP and its dps is still unconvincing even if you fit 425's which is difficult with its tight fittings its also one rig short compared to the other 2.

At least my proposal rectifies these issues (besides rigs) at the cost of some speed .. so there is still a reason to use the other 2. but also gives the Vaga a role that's a little more unique and better than it is



It has at least 750m/s on top of every other HAC and a mwd bonus to mitigate even further the incoming dmg, it's not perfect but it's a decent trade off.

If you can't get caught you can't be killed, if you have the ability to dictate range on top of keeping a huge transversal while using guns with almost perfect tracking you'll always put more dmg on your enemy than he will put on you.

Cynabals are tears harvesters in this domain, dictate range and dmg application. Now we can agree this ship is out of whack and needs the nerfhammer but makes years this is required, also step by step we're getting there, we don't need to overbuff Vaga right now and once Cynas get nerf see Vaga as next Cyna but with absolutely no predator unless the pilot is dumb.

I'm sure this ship will be very very strong for solo pilots, small gangs, and offering a nice hull for creative players but it doesn't need more fall off bonus on top or it will simply become an almost invincible solo pownmachine.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ahnn
Space Zombiez
#1942 - 2013-08-12 17:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahnn
Edit: never mind. Didn't read it close enough...
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1943 - 2013-08-12 17:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Ahnn wrote:
CCP, you guys need to look at why the Deimos is called the "Diemost" by players. Think on it. Meditate on it. Mull it over. Then ask yourselves exactly why you lowered its survivability even more. Then explain to us here why you did it. Maybe you're seeing something that we don't, but if your version hit's live, it's gonna go from being the "Diemost" to the "Never fly. Under any circumstances. Ever."

With all that negative stuff over with, gotta say that I'm very intrigued by the Ishtar.


Dude, I think you are operating on old information. Check the updated OP.

The Deimos gains tank on every level, has an amazing sig rad role bonus being added, AND is getting a rep bonus.

P

That hull is getting more survivable from the current TQ version in every way that a ship can.


Edit: see you cut your post - you would have been correct with the first proposed changes though so it was probably an honest mistake - Rise fixed it up for us though.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1944 - 2013-08-12 17:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
But looking at the Vaga it has more speed than the stabber and more effective range its almost like its navy version but with T2 bonuses/role.
Then you look at the other HAC's compared to there T1 versions and they are very different ships with different roles.
The lack of consistency regarding minmatar ships compared to the other races ships is strange.

Vagabond
Stabber
Cynabal

All three are very similar but the Vaga is the odd one out since its meant to be a T2 specialist ship its speed and role but its still almost same as the other 2 ..
There needs to be more uniqueness to each ship over the other 2.

Vagabond - slower but more resilient/ heavier dps
Stabber - fast but low dps, more utility/flexibility
Cynabal - fast and agile good dps a upgrade on the stabber like its fleet version should be

Edit: just to be clear i think the vaga should be - slower but more resilient/ heavier dps atm its still fast and needs more dps and tank but this is how i think the vaga should be

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1945 - 2013-08-12 17:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Harvey James wrote:
But looking at the Vaga it has more speed than the stabber and more effective range its almost like its navy version but with T2 bonuses/role.
Then you look at the other HAC's compared to there T1 versions and they are very different ships with different roles.
The lack of consistency regarding minmatar ships compared to the other races ships is strange.

Vagabond
Stabber
Cynabal

All three are very similar but the Vaga is the odd one out since its meant to be a T2 specialist ship its speed and role but its still almost same as the other 2 ..
There needs to be more uniqueness to each ship over the other 2.

Vagabond - slower but more resilient/ heavier dps
Stabber - fast but low dps, more utility/flexibility
Cynabal - fast and agile good dps a upgrade on the stabber like its fleet version should be


I would be interested to see your exact same analysis for the Omen and Caracal lineups between navy and HAC (angel pirate ships are pretty unique in their minnie overlap compared to the way the laser ships sit and with no real missile pirate cruiser). How do you see less hull similarity between those, then between the minnie lineup?

If I was going to rate the lineups on diversity I would personally start at thorax as most diverse, followed by stabber, caracal, omen variants in that order. What is your perspective and what distinctions is it based on?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1946 - 2013-08-12 17:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
I think the Phantasm has tremendous potential and could be the best of the lot

Omen - good speed/ decent dps/projection
Navy Omen - better than omen in every way, especially with 7 low slots gives lots of options
Zealot - slow/decent dps/good projection and strong tank
Phantasm - Tracking bonus combined with shield tank is nice/ lots of potential .. needs a lot of work though

Caracal - fastest of the lot/ good projection/ decent dps
Navy Caracal - slow/ decent tank ,good damage application more of a brawler
Cerberus - good speed/ good dps/ excellent projection / decent tank

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1947 - 2013-08-12 17:50:45 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Omen - good speed/ decent dps/projection
Navy Omen - better than omen in every way, especially with 7 low slots gives lots of options
Zealot - slow/decent dps/good projection and strong tank
Phantasm - Tracking bonus combined with shield tank is nice/ lots of potential .. needs a lot of work though

Caracal - fastest of the lot/ good projection/ decent dps
Navy Caracal - slow/ decent tank ,good damage application more of a brawler
Cerberus - good speed/ good dps/ excellent projection / decent tank


Nomen does more damage than the omen, has more bandwidth and a utility high.
Zealot has better tank, damage and projection trading the drones, and mobility for it.

All three have locked damages (except for drones on the omen/nomen) cap dependancy and bad tracking at closer ranges. All except the nomen are helpless against frigs

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1948 - 2013-08-12 17:53:40 UTC
Breacher - Talwar - Bellicose - Cyclone - Claymore - Typhoon

Please turn the distinctly meh Munnin into a launcher based platform.

Please.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1949 - 2013-08-12 17:55:35 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Breacher - Talwar - Bellicose - Cyclone - Claymore - Typhoon

Please turn the distinctly meh Munnin into a launcher based platform.

Please.


scythe fleet issue is a nice missile ship too something the muninn could be modelled on and still keep its artie identity intact

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1950 - 2013-08-12 18:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Harvey James wrote:

scythe fleet issue is a nice missile ship too something the muninn could be modelled on and still keep its artie identity intact



Excellent reference point.

The Munnin is such a meh, afterthought design.. no one complains about it, no one likes it A LOT or dislikes it A LOT.

It is one of 2 matari HACs, for god's sake dont let it be an infuriatingly mediocre design.

Split weapons for Munnin please - exactly like Navy Scythe! Let its 'thing' be adaptability and flexibility!

Im sure this has been suggested before - please do this Rise.
Luscius Uta
#1951 - 2013-08-12 18:13:28 UTC
Muninn still needs fixing. Not only it needs another midslot, but the optimal range bonus is pathetic even if you fit 720mm's. I say increase the optimal bonus to 20% per level to compensate for short optimal range of Projectile turrets. Same goes for other ships that have bonus to optimal range of Projectile turrets, such as Jaguar.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1952 - 2013-08-12 19:09:24 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

scythe fleet issue is a nice missile ship too something the muninn could be modelled on and still keep its artie identity intact



Excellent reference point.

The Munnin is such a meh, afterthought design.. no one complains about it, no one likes it A LOT or dislikes it A LOT.

It is one of 2 matari HACs, for god's sake dont let it be an infuriatingly mediocre design.

Split weapons for Munnin please - exactly like Navy Scythe! Let its 'thing' be adaptability and flexibility!

Im sure this has been suggested before - please do this Rise.



Arties kinda don't work well without exactly that set of bonus'. Although with the fitting requirements for either, it would certainly allow for incredibly powerful fittings.
Alsyth
#1953 - 2013-08-12 19:30:04 UTC
Make 100MN AB only fit on cruisers or you'll have a ton of these HACS fitted with 100MN AB.

As annoying as 100MN AB T3s, which would be somehow fixed by that.

No reason there should be a limitation on MJD only.
Or make it so their align time with oversized propulsion is something like 100s, because 20s is clearly nowhere near enough.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1954 - 2013-08-12 21:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Some of you dont grasp the problem with the vagabond, if those changes go live you have a amazing brawling cruiser that cant really be kited. A ship doing 600dps, while sporting, due to the way asbs stack with resitance boni and t2 resitances, an incredible tank (not as hardcore as the deimos but still nice), if you have amazing micro you can get over 80k ehp out of it with a xlasb, or 55k ehp with dual large asbs but with the option of reaching the xlasb and getting 80k ehp if you manage to get a reload of the second booster.

That alone makes it able to outbrawl pretty much any hac, t1 cruiser or bc (bar very few ones). If you pair this with the speed, with is over 3.4km/s with heat and reaches well over 5km/s with links and lg snakes, you make it an incredibe anti kiting platform, you simply wouldnt stand a chance in a cyna, omen navy, shield deimos and co. Youd get caught in seconds and would have no means of survival.

If you are in a kiting ship or a small kiting gang a competent vaga pilot makes it impossible to survive.

This is one sence is good, its a specialized role, one neither the cyna nor the stabber fulfill, a cyna whle strong isnt a very good brawler nor is the stabber, its specialization is anti kiting.

I however fear that it does it to well and thus is slighply op in its brawling role.


The second problem is that very few people want a vaga to be a brawler, they want a kiter. And here is where some people are wrong, you cant give it much more dps, that would make it op as hell as a brawler, you need to give it a boost at range without making it better as a brawler or op as a kiter, this means it shouldnt oudps a zealot in scorch range nor track better then a deimos.

If you would just give it a second faloff bonus you give it no change to its brawling capabilitys, not making it op, you dont push its damage to hard so at 40km its still under zealot/sacrilege and co dps, you just give it a nice dps boost at range making it a viable kiter.


If ccp intend to force it into brawling it their decision, but i really think a double faloff bonus is the way to go.


Also lol @ the 100mn comment, you can easily counter that, it toally gimps the fit. 100mn fits are fine.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1955 - 2013-08-12 21:36:06 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

If you would just give it a second faloff bonus you give it no change to its brawling capabilitys, not making it op, you dont push its damage to hard so at 40km its still under zealot/sacrilege and co dps, you just give it a nice dps boost at range making it a viable kiter.


If ccp intend to force it into brawling it their decision, but i really think a double faloff bonus is the way to go.


The problem with a dual falloff bonus is that it makes it impossible the already hard task of fighting a vaga in a frigate.
If the dual falloff bonus is given, say hello to a vaga that can kill frigs at 60k with a short range weapon. And you may say what you will, sure it cant kill a well tanked cruiser in a reasonable amount of time at 30k, but not many ships can while fitting the same combination of speed, tank and gank.

And to be completely honest: the vaga already has better tracking, no cap usage, high ammo clip, and selectable damage type. I think thats enough.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1956 - 2013-08-12 21:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gargantoi
cerb + eagle need more dps ..sacrilege needs +1 more low ..as for muninn as long as tornado + zealot + hurricane are around no one will use it
Intercostal
Dhoomcats
#1957 - 2013-08-12 21:48:17 UTC
Amarr ships:

Sac (missiles=cap less weapons) gets more cap recharge than Zealot (lasers=heavy cap use weapon).
Even with the 'bonus' to laser cap use for the Zealot this still doesn't make sense.

I guess active tanking a Zealot is not allowed by this balance pass.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1958 - 2013-08-12 22:04:21 UTC
Intercostal wrote:
Amarr ships:

Sac (missiles=cap less weapons) gets more cap recharge than Zealot (lasers=heavy cap use weapon).
Even with the 'bonus' to laser cap use for the Zealot this still doesn't make sense.

I guess active tanking a Zealot is not allowed by this balance pass.


Tbh with the added cap recharge added in this pass you might be able to do a light active armor tank (single rep kiting fit)

And look at the maller , nomen and naugs. You can pretty reliably active tank them provided you dont have a medium neut against you and manage to minimise transversal.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1959 - 2013-08-12 22:10:47 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

If you would just give it a second faloff bonus you give it no change to its brawling capabilitys, not making it op, you dont push its damage to hard so at 40km its still under zealot/sacrilege and co dps, you just give it a nice dps boost at range making it a viable kiter.


If ccp intend to force it into brawling it their decision, but i really think a double faloff bonus is the way to go.


The problem with a dual falloff bonus is that it makes it impossible the already hard task of fighting a vaga in a frigate.
If the dual falloff bonus is given, say hello to a vaga that can kill frigs at 60k with a short range weapon. And you may say what you will, sure it cant kill a well tanked cruiser in a reasonable amount of time at 30k, but not many ships can while fitting the same combination of speed, tank and gank.

And to be completely honest: the vaga already has better tracking, no cap usage, high ammo clip, and selectable damage type. I think thats enough.


A frig at 60 can easily warp tho, thats hardly a reason to be op, what counts is point rnage, i.e within 43 or 53 km. It has **** tracking tbh, only lazors track worse, meaning the zealot is the only hac that has worse tracking then the vagabond, muninn has a tracking bonus and the rest uses missiles or blasters, all tracking better. And again, damage selction is a bit of a joke, you need barrage if you want to hit further out then 30, and even with a double faloff bonus, which, carries worse dps and a tracking maulus compared to faction ammo.


The vaga is a terrible kiter atm (as is the cynabal btw), it will still be a terrible kiter post patch.
TekGnosis
Rules of Acquisition
#1960 - 2013-08-12 22:10:52 UTC
So after re-examining the role etc, I'm reversing my opinion that the Zealot really needs any huge speed buff, it tanks very well. Still, I'd really like to see just a small bump to help AB fit, as the T1 cruisers are absurdly faster and can get remarkably similar EHP numbers.

Regardless, there is one very specific change I'd like to mention that nobody else has.

Zealot has a ridiculously small 240m3 cargo hold. Using it in the kiting sense with this MWD bonus is really going to be difficult to realize unless this is buffed imho. Even with perfect skills running MWD, long point, and Scorch requires nearly all a small booster can provide with navy 400's. That lasts about 3.5 minutes, which seems fine unless you want to use the t2 resists and run a local rep.

Running a local rep on the Zealot works great for about two minutes flat, then you're dead in space with no more boosters.

Basically the problem is that Zealot requires a cap booster to operate at all with a MWD, so the cargo hold size is a direct measure of it's longevity. The t1 hulls get 400m3, so I'm effectively forced to choose Navy Omen for tanky kiting (gimping its speed with plates/etc to get the needed EHP) even though I'd rather do it in a Zealot that was 'specialized' for that.