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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1921 - 2013-08-12 12:55:26 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Or the ability to fit a credible tank with 425s.

.....neither of which is happening.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1922 - 2013-08-12 14:12:49 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Yes cos a second falloff bonus on a Vaga wouldn't be stupidly OP at all Smile

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1923 - 2013-08-12 14:15:04 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Yes cos a second falloff bonus on a Vaga wouldn't be stupidly OP at all Smile


When it can barely hit past web range hack and slash doesn't really work anymore.

If I'm going to pay 200mil for a ship with 37k eHP I want some bang for my buck.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1924 - 2013-08-12 14:23:45 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Yes cos a second falloff bonus on a Vaga wouldn't be stupidly OP at all Smile


When it can barely hit past web range hack and slash doesn't really work anymore.

If I'm going to pay 200mil for a ship with 37k eHP I want some bang for my buck.


i assume you mean dps after 10km is a bit low?
well yes on top of more buffer and pg it could use stronger damage bonuses

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1925 - 2013-08-12 14:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Vagabond
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount (was 5% bonus to max velocity)

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 1000 PWG(+145), 410 CPU(+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2150(+497) / 1500(+163) / 1280(+296)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1200(+137.5) / 245s (-90s) / 4.9/s (+1.7)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 260(+21) / .504 / 11590000 / 8.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 330 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar(+7)
Signature radius: 115

Maybe something like this .. this way it is a better tanker/resilient than cynabal and stabber .. at the cost of a little speed ... a fair trade i would say especially as the other HAC's are so much slower still its out of place in its current form and overshadows the stabber and will end up better than cynabal probably .... but these changes give it a unique role and reduces overlap considerably.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1926 - 2013-08-12 15:17:00 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Yes cos a second falloff bonus on a Vaga wouldn't be stupidly OP at all Smile


See this is the thing, you ask anybody who has actually flown a shield Loki or a Vaga or any kiting AC ship and they will tell you AC kiting is bad, and has been for some time, a double falloff bonus is absolutely needed to make the hull usefull.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1927 - 2013-08-12 15:27:22 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.


Yes cos a second falloff bonus on a Vaga wouldn't be stupidly OP at all Smile


See this is the thing, you ask anybody who has actually flown a shield Loki or a Vaga or any kiting AC ship and they will tell you AC kiting is bad, and has been for some time, a double falloff bonus is absolutely needed to make the hull usefull.


Now the Deimos, that's a ship that needs a stronger falloff bonus or a second falloff bonus, the AC kiting ships just need more dps,
being able to fit 425's will help with that aswell as adding range

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1928 - 2013-08-12 15:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Danny John-Peter wrote:
See this is the thing, you ask anybody who has actually flown a shield Loki or a Vaga or any kiting AC ship and they will tell you AC kiting is bad, and has been for some time, a double falloff bonus is absolutely needed to make the hull usefull.


AC kiting is now 'bad' because of adjustment due to winmatar and no one flying anything but (and it ain't actually bad dude, no cap, damage selection, good tracking etc). Remember?

Welcome to balance. The fastest most disengagable ships suffer from falloff limited projection - this is a better world for EVE. If you want to kite with ACs you get locked into a T2 ammo damage type and live with lower DPS the farther you go. You get to keep your tracking, damage selection with short range ammo, capless guns, and very healthy damage. If projection is the ultimate consideration for YOU go fly something like a NOmen and deal with Cap dependency and razor thin shield tank. There has to be tradeoffs and, with the huge buffs the Vaga is getting on top of its already massive strengths, awesome damage projection would make it way too much.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1929 - 2013-08-12 15:50:10 UTC
Hey guys just a heads up for you - all of these ships, along with the command ships and pretty much everything else, are on singularity now for testing.

Please go have a look and let us know what you think in the test server feedback forum or in these threads on features and ideas.

Thanks!

@ccp_rise
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1930 - 2013-08-12 15:50:47 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
See this is the thing, you ask anybody who has actually flown a shield Loki or a Vaga or any kiting AC ship and they will tell you AC kiting is bad, and has been for some time, a double falloff bonus is absolutely needed to make the hull usefull.


AC kiting is now 'bad' because of adjustment due to winmatar and no one flying anything but (and it ain't actually bad dude, no cap, damage selection, good tracking etc). Remember?

Welcome to balance. The fastest most disengagable ships suffer from falloff limited projection - this is a better world for EVE. If you want to kite with ACs you get locked into a T2 ammo damage type and live with lower DPS the farther you go. You get to keep your tracking, damage selection with short range ammo, capless guns, and very healthy damage. If projection is the ultimate consideration for YOU go fly something like a NOmen and deal with Cap dependency and razor thin shield tank. There has to be tradeoffs and, with the huge buffs the Vaga is getting on top of its already massive strengths, awesome damage projection would make it way too much.



OK so what do you with 200mil of crap dps that can't tank and can't damage from range but goes very fast?

Oh wait I'll tell you fly a Fleet stabber that has more tank, similar damage and dual prop that's what. At least it can do something other than point.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#1931 - 2013-08-12 15:52:43 UTC
So, welp, no changes to the Cerb? What?

I for one will not be welcoming our new Cerb Overlords.Ugh

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1932 - 2013-08-12 16:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Onictus wrote:
OK so what do you with 200mil of crap dps that can't tank and can't damage from range but goes very fast?


Leverage its awesome tank with an ASB and amazing minnie T2 shield resists? Or use that top-of-class speed and apply your limited damage to plink away at a target with no fear of getting caught with your capless weapons, amazing anti-frig capabilities due to tracking drones and med neut, great cap so you can MWD all day long, resistance to dishonour drones and damps, and reduced sig rad due to the role bonus? Or sacrifice some of your invulnerability to small stuff by dropping the med neut and fitting 425s and achieving that better damage/projection?

IE. pretty much anything you want - minnie flexibility is rampant in this hull.

Onictus wrote:
Oh wait I'll tell you fly a Fleet stabber that has more tank, similar damage and dual prop that's what. At least it can do something other than point.


SFI is a good ship. The number of viable hulls right now is amazing and a testament to the work the balance team have be doing. I haven't agreed with every change but you can't argue with the success of their results so far.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1933 - 2013-08-12 16:04:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys just a heads up for you - all of these ships, along with the command ships and pretty much everything else, are on singularity now for testing.

Please go have a look and let us know what you think in the test server feedback forum or in these threads on features and ideas.

Thanks!


Rise any response to my vaga change post .. a few posts up on this page?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1934 - 2013-08-12 16:06:06 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
Onictus wrote:
OK so what do you with 200mil of crap dps that can't tank and can't damage from range but goes very fast?


Leverage its awesome tank with an ASB and amazing minnie T2 shield resists? Or use that top-of-class speed and apply your limited damage to plink away at a target with no fear of getting caught with your capless weapons, great cap so you can MWD all day long, resistance to dishonour drones and damps, and reduced sig rad due to the role bonus? Or sacrifice some of your invulnerability to small stuff by dropping the med neut and fitting 425s and achieving that better damage/projection?

IE. pretty much anything you want - minnie flexibility is rampant in this hull.

Onictus wrote:
Oh wait I'll tell you fly a Fleet stabber that has more tank, similar damage and dual prop that's what. At least it can do something other than point.


SFI is a good ship. The number of viable hulls right now is amazing and a testament to the work the balance team have be doing. I haven't agreed with every change but you can't argue with the success of their results so far.


No I think you will find that everybody will just fly other ships that do much better damage at much better range while having more EHP.

Basically, every other HAC.

Congratulations CCP, you have made another rifter, a useless ship in a post buff EVE.

And you didn't even answer any of our actual concerns about the Vaga to boot, you just ignored them, fantastic work really.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1935 - 2013-08-12 16:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Danny John-Peter wrote:
No I think you will find that everybody will just fly other ships that do much better damage at much better range while having more EHP.

Basically, every ABC.

Congratulations CCP, you have made another rifter, a useless ship compared to the Cynabal (another problem in the line of OP angel ship) and the ABCs which still need a tweak.

At least you fixed the Vaga so that once you bring this other stuff in line people will fly it, fantastic work really.


Fixed your post up to reflect a bit more reality (at least the in game type of reality Blink).

Also edited, above, my post that you quoted because I forgot about the amazing Vaga assets of default med neuts and nice drones bay/bandwidth for a second there. Man that hull has a lot going for it.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1936 - 2013-08-12 16:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Rynnik wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
No I think you will find that everybody will just fly other ships that do much better damage at much better range while having more EHP.

Basically, every ABC.

Congratulations CCP, you have made another rifter, a useless ship compared to the Cynabal (another problem in the line of OP angel ship) and the ABCs which still need a tweak.

At least you fixed the Vaga so that once you bring this other stuff in line people will fly it, fantastic work really.


Fixed your post up to reflect a bit more reality (at least the in game type of reality Blink).

Also edited, above, my post that you quoted because I forgot about the amazing Vaga assets of default med neuts and nice drones bay/bandwidth for a second there. Man that hull has a lot going for it.


Literally give me one reason I should fly the Vaga over a Deimos a Cerb or a Talos or a Navy Omen.

All of those are plenty fast in the kiting role and in the meantime they do much better DPS at range have much better projection and in the case of the Cerb and the Deimos, have more EHP to boot.

But god we couldn't make a good Minmatar kiting cruiser because then everybody would moan about the ******* nano days and scream "winmatar".
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1937 - 2013-08-12 16:25:40 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Literally give me one reason I should fly the Vaga over a Deimos a Cerb or a Talos or a Navy Omen.


Only one?

Okay, right off the top of my head: A good vaga pilot will never ever get caught and die to any of the four ships you just listed.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1938 - 2013-08-12 16:26:21 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Literally give me one reason I should fly the Vaga over a Deimos a Cerb or a Talos or a Navy Omen



And why would you fly a Diefaster Talos or NOmen over a cynabal or vigilant?

For the same reasons, different ships, different abilities, different classes all with a purpose. You just don't like the new Vaga everyone has understood that already but if so many tell you your reasoning is bad then why not just go on SISI test it isntead of same arguments again and again?
Maybe it's not the ship for you anymore after TE nerf but don't ask to give it an integrated double TE, it's too obvious why it would not be balanced even if you don't admit or don't like it, the current version is OK

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1939 - 2013-08-12 16:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Literally give me one reason I should fly the Vaga over a Deimos a Cerb or a Talos or a Navy Omen



And why would you fly a Diefaster Talos or NOmen over a cynabal or vigilant?

For the same reasons, different ships, different abilities, different classes all with a purpose. You just don't like the new Vaga everyone has understood that already but if so many tell you your reasoning is bad then why not just go on SISI test it isntead of same arguments again and again?
Maybe it's not the ship for you anymore after TE nerf but don't ask to give it an integrated double TE, it's too obvious why it would not be balanced even if you don't admit or don't like it, the current version is OK


The problem with the proposed Vaga is it is still too similar to the stabber and cynabal ... it has got the bonus to ASB but it still lacks EHP and its dps is still unconvincing even if you fit 425's which is difficult with its tight fittings its also one rig short compared to the other 2.

At least my proposal rectifies these issues (besides rigs) at the cost of some speed .. so there is still a reason to use the other 2. but also gives the Vaga a role that's a little more unique and better than it is

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1940 - 2013-08-12 16:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Harvey James wrote:
The problem with the proposed Vaga is it is still too similar to the stabber and cynabal ... it has got the bonus to ASB but it still lacks EHP and its dps is still unconvincing even if you fit 425's which is difficult with its tight fittings its also one rig short compared to the other 2.


You can't count the Cynabal - that problem is CCP acknowledged with a fix incoming sometime.

For the SFI - I don't want to get you confused with Danny ref the projection discussion but the Vaga has that falloff bonus, so you are saying the SFI is a better kiting ship without a range bonus at all? (going back through posts I don't think you said that so take it as an honest question) That combined with rep bonuses and T2 resists vs the SFI tracking bonus provide me with PLENTY of reasons to pick one or the other depending on what job I want to get done.

I find those two a lot more distinct then say the NOmen and Zealot as an example. People are really underestimating the role bonus and electronic/cap buffs in my opinion, ESPECIALLY in relation to what it will do for the Vaga.