These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1901 - 2013-08-10 16:22:39 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Lucien Cain wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes i know, but there are tons of brawling boats and very very few dedicated kiting ships, especially in the cruiser class.


I've got no problem with a little diversity in the HAC line of ships. I also think the whole issue was made more difficult without proper reason. 4 Brawlers (Slow/medium speed, Heavy/very heavy tanks with average/weak DMG) and 4 Kiters(Fast/very Fast with good/very good damage and average/weak tank).

Let's make this simple. You would have sufficient diversity and clear defined roles by balancing those ships through these 3 categories.

Example: Sacrilege= Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
Vagabond= Weak tank+ medium damage + amazing speed
Deimos= Medium tank + medium damage + medium speed
Zealot= Medium tank+ high damage + slow speed

There's no need for overcomplicating the whole issue even further, we need good and simple solutions now.





No the problem with that is you might aswell make a new class of ship because they will be so different but then again they are already like that which is why people are confused about the role of a HAC.. there is no consistency in the class.

What would be interesting would be if they made that separate class say Fast assault cruisers or fast attack cruisers.
This class could have all the fast skirmishers essentially T2 attack cruisers
- Vagabond = Weak tank/active + medium damage + amazing speed
- Deimos = Weak tank/active + strong damage + excellent speed
- Cerberus = decent tank + strong damage + strong speed
- Zealot = decent tank + medium damage + strong speed

HAC's
-eagle = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-sacrilege = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Ishtar = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Muninn = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.


Well you could split the Brawlers (Ishtar, Eagle, Sacrilege, Muninn) and the Kiters (Vagabond, Deimos, Cerberus, Zealot) into the classic HACs and (your suggested) FACs. A viable solution from my perspective. Let's take this further then. Why not give them both different Role Bonuses?

Example : HACs - 50% Bonus to Armor/Shield (or any other Tank Bonus)
FACs - 25% Capacitor Capacity with MWD equipped (or any other Speed Bonus)


Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1902 - 2013-08-10 16:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Example : HACs - 50% Bonus to Armor/Shield (or any other Tank Bonus) .. perhaps HP/ active tank bonuses

FACs - 25% Capacitor Capacity with MWD equipped (or any other Speed Bonus)... perhaps as a FAC skill bonus 5% mwd cap
i like the mwd sig reduction role bonus would work well with the lower sig radius they would get.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1903 - 2013-08-10 18:46:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Lucien Cain wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes i know, but there are tons of brawling boats and very very few dedicated kiting ships, especially in the cruiser class.


I've got no problem with a little diversity in the HAC line of ships. I also think the whole issue was made more difficult without proper reason. 4 Brawlers (Slow/medium speed, Heavy/very heavy tanks with average/weak DMG) and 4 Kiters(Fast/very Fast with good/very good damage and average/weak tank).

Let's make this simple. You would have sufficient diversity and clear defined roles by balancing those ships through these 3 categories.

Example: Sacrilege= Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
Vagabond= Weak tank+ medium damage + amazing speed
Deimos= Medium tank + medium damage + medium speed
Zealot= Medium tank+ high damage + slow speed

There's no need for overcomplicating the whole issue even further, we need good and simple solutions now.





No the problem with that is you might aswell make a new class of ship because they will be so different but then again they are already like that which is why people are confused about the role of a HAC.. there is no consistency in the class.

What would be interesting would be if they made that separate class say Fast assault cruisers or fast attack cruisers.
This class could have all the fast skirmishers essentially T2 attack cruisers
- Vagabond = Weak tank + medium damage + amazing speed
- Deimos = Weak tank + strong damage + excellent speed
- Cerberus = decent tank + strong damage + strong speed
- Zealot = decent tank + medium damage + strong speed

HAC's
-eagle = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-sacrilege = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Ishtar = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Muninn = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.



did you not just describe the current hac lineup with its proposed changes?
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1904 - 2013-08-10 18:49:00 UTC
Of course when you same low/medium/high damage you mean..... at all ranges, at all tracking....
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1905 - 2013-08-10 19:22:19 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Lucien Cain wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes i know, but there are tons of brawling boats and very very few dedicated kiting ships, especially in the cruiser class.


I've got no problem with a little diversity in the HAC line of ships. I also think the whole issue was made more difficult without proper reason. 4 Brawlers (Slow/medium speed, Heavy/very heavy tanks with average/weak DMG) and 4 Kiters(Fast/very Fast with good/very good damage and average/weak tank).

Let's make this simple. You would have sufficient diversity and clear defined roles by balancing those ships through these 3 categories.

Example: Sacrilege= Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
Vagabond= Weak tank+ medium damage + amazing speed
Deimos= Medium tank + medium damage + medium speed
Zealot= Medium tank+ high damage + slow speed

There's no need for overcomplicating the whole issue even further, we need good and simple solutions now.





No the problem with that is you might aswell make a new class of ship because they will be so different but then again they are already like that which is why people are confused about the role of a HAC.. there is no consistency in the class.

What would be interesting would be if they made that separate class say Fast assault cruisers or fast attack cruisers.
This class could have all the fast skirmishers essentially T2 attack cruisers
- Vagabond = Weak tank + medium damage + amazing speed
- Deimos = Weak tank + strong damage + excellent speed
- Cerberus = decent tank + strong damage + strong speed
- Zealot = decent tank + medium damage + strong speed

HAC's
-eagle = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-sacrilege = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Ishtar = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.
-Muninn = Heavy tank + medium damage + slow speed.



did you not just describe the current hac lineup with its proposed changes?


Perhaps in some regards, but personally i see the brawlers as being too weak in their tanking role (SAC for example) for them to be defined as HEAVY.
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1906 - 2013-08-10 19:48:06 UTC
Romar Thel wrote:
Of course when you same low/medium/high damage you mean..... at all ranges, at all tracking....


Kiters should hit harder (more dmg) and better (good tracking), while being fast and needing to be fast because of their weak defenses. I'm not exactly sure about the range though, but having the option to choose between close and long range damage for all kiters would be preferable. A specific weapon tracking, damage and speed bonus (details to be defined) for all kiters would enable them to fill their roles admirably. Their Strengths would favour the ASSAULT Aspect.

The (slower) Brawlers on the other hand should be focused on taking as much of a beating, as reason would allow for a ship of their size, while dealing decent damage at the same time. Tracking bonuses should be probably left out in favour of damage, tank and perhaps web bonuses. As brawlers i expect these ships to be close to mid range damage dealers. Being strong Armor/Shield tanking ships they should clearly favour the HEAVY Aspect.


Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1907 - 2013-08-11 03:23:26 UTC
I find it odd that people think there are "so many" dedicated brawlers. I think that's just an incorrect perception. Even in the past 2 pages, people have listed the Deimos as both a kiter and a brawler as well as a few others. If anything, that shows the hulls are more diverse than people are giving them credit for.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1908 - 2013-08-11 09:44:52 UTC
So when are we seeing this on Singularity ?
Dysgenesis
Dhoomcats
#1909 - 2013-08-11 18:20:51 UTC
Well I think the current changes are about as good as we can hope for (excluding the Vaga shield bonus, which is interesting but only if the Vaga changes from its classic kiting role to some sort of heavy tackle jobbie).

I particularly like the Diemos especially the brawler armour or shield kite diversity it now appears to offer. Perhaps we should allow the Diemos and the Cerberus their time in the Sun, as they have been so terrible for so long.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1910 - 2013-08-11 22:05:15 UTC
Dysgenesis wrote:
Well I think the current changes are about as good as we can hope for (excluding the Vaga shield bonus, which is interesting but only if the Vaga changes from its classic kiting role to some sort of heavy tackle jobbie).

I particularly like the Diemos especially the brawler armour or shield kite diversity it now appears to offer. Perhaps we should allow the Diemos and the Cerberus their time in the Sun, as they have been so terrible for so long.


The Deimos has been good for some time actually.

The Cerb not so much.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1911 - 2013-08-11 23:39:43 UTC
Lucien Cain wrote:
Kiters should hit harder (more dmg) and better (good tracking), while being fast and needing to be fast because of their weak defenses. I'm not exactly sure about the range though, but having the option to choose between close and long range damage for all kiters would be preferable. A specific weapon tracking, damage and speed bonus (details to be defined) for all kiters would enable them to fill their roles admirably. Their Strengths would favour the ASSAULT Aspect.
The problem is that hi-damage + hi-speed also tends to include hi-tank via speed and range. If your opponent's weapons cannot track or reach you, then you have a 100% effective tank. And all that in one ship is not exactly balanced. Kiters should be mediocre level damage at best, and it should take awhile to grind down an opponent. Sure swooping in and melting the target with amazing dps, while avoiding attacks with incredible speed and agility, and then escaping like a ninja when the blob arrives, it sounds all great and ASSAULT-like.... but why would you ever fly anything else? I know I wouldn't. That ain't balanced.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1912 - 2013-08-12 00:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Lucien Cain wrote:
Kiters should hit harder (more dmg) and better (good tracking), while being fast and needing to be fast because of their weak defenses. I'm not exactly sure about the range though, but having the option to choose between close and long range damage for all kiters would be preferable. A specific weapon tracking, damage and speed bonus (details to be defined) for all kiters would enable them to fill their roles admirably. Their Strengths would favour the ASSAULT Aspect.
The problem is that hi-damage + hi-speed also tends to include hi-tank via speed and range. If your opponent's weapons cannot track or reach you, then you have a 100% effective tank. And all that in one ship is not exactly balanced. Kiters should be mediocre level damage at best, and it should take awhile to grind down an opponent. Sure swooping in and melting the target with amazing dps, while avoiding attacks with incredible speed and agility, and then escaping like a ninja when the blob arrives, it sounds all great and ASSAULT-like.... but why would you ever fly anything else? I know I wouldn't. That ain't balanced.


Yeah, its a good thing CCP didn't put a ship in the Game that does 800 DPS at heated point range and goes very fast for its class.

Oh no wait thats exactly what they did.

The issue with your argument assumes that there is not direct counter to kiters, where there are actually many, long range webs small tackle and long range scrams are all excellent examples, cruiser kiting versus a competent opponent is very challenging and there are many tactics to catch kiters of similar wieghts.

We aren't asking for the Vaga to be a Talos with medium guns, we are asking it to apply enough DPS to kill the target before its friends arrive, when you are applying between 180 and 220 DPS at the edge of point range all it becomes is a ship that can escape and not much else.

A double falloff bonus would insure that it doesn't become an OP brawler while giving it an appreciable buff in its respective engagement bracket, rather than a useless active shield tank bonus which is, based from what I can see, entirely on the fact that Kill2 once flew an XLASB Vaga and killed some not very competent people with it.
RanmaruMori
HEX HAX
#1913 - 2013-08-12 06:23:17 UTC
Eagle is bad in all. Others are dumb, case they don't see all. Go in another topic and just compare Vulture and Eagle. Vulture have same range, better tank, better damage, more utility slots, 5 drones, 2 links (if you want) vs slightly less mobility.
Why must i choose eagle instead of vulture?

Cerberus have range and speed, when Nighthawk have damage and tank. This is balance. Vulture and Eagle are same. Eagle must be changed in any cases.
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#1914 - 2013-08-12 10:02:37 UTC
RanmaruMori wrote:
Eagle is bad in all. Others are dumb, case they don't see all. Go in another topic and just compare Vulture and Eagle. Vulture have same range, better tank, better damage, more utility slots, 5 drones, 2 links (if you want) vs slightly less mobility.
Why must i choose eagle instead of vulture?

Cerberus have range and speed, when Nighthawk have damage and tank. This is balance. Vulture and Eagle are same. Eagle must be changed in any cases.


Good point, and lets face it the Eagle isn't winning any races.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1915 - 2013-08-12 10:17:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

DEIMOS

For the Deimos we are bumping the speed up some more, lowering the Signature Radius slightly and of course adding the electronics and cap changes. We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage


eh?

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1916 - 2013-08-12 11:24:59 UTC
RanmaruMori wrote:
Eagle is bad in all. Others are dumb, case they don't see all. Go in another topic and just compare Vulture and Eagle. Vulture have same range, better tank, better damage, more utility slots, 5 drones, 2 links (if you want) vs slightly less mobility.
Why must i choose eagle instead of vulture?

Cerberus have range and speed, when Nighthawk have damage and tank. This is balance. Vulture and Eagle are same. Eagle must be changed in any cases.

I've barely even looked at the Eagle so I can't say it doesn't suck, but I think you want a better argument than that a cruiser hull doesn't perform as well as a battlecruiser hull, except in speed.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1917 - 2013-08-12 12:17:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1918 - 2013-08-12 12:28:57 UTC
God no.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1919 - 2013-08-12 12:34:09 UTC
Battlingbean wrote:
RanmaruMori wrote:
Eagle is bad in all. Others are dumb, case they don't see all. Go in another topic and just compare Vulture and Eagle. Vulture have same range, better tank, better damage, more utility slots, 5 drones, 2 links (if you want) vs slightly less mobility.
Why must i choose eagle instead of vulture?

Cerberus have range and speed, when Nighthawk have damage and tank. This is balance. Vulture and Eagle are same. Eagle must be changed in any cases.


Good point, and lets face it the Eagle isn't winning any races.


even the blackbird has more base speed 190m/s .. granted it has more mass but still....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1920 - 2013-08-12 12:52:49 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

The Vagabond's speed is out of place here the max speed the other HAC's have is 230 so why does the Vaga get 295?
It also conflicts with the current trend of faction/attack cruisers being the quickest ... so trade speed for more tank since the HAC's are about resilience not speed right? .. unless you are happy to contradict this.

- reduce speed to 260 m/s
- add extra HP across the board to encourage ASB tanking

This besides making sense in terms of HAC's not being fast but tanky/resilient but also follows the trend of faction/Attack cruisers being the quickest .. this also creates a more distinct difference between it and the stabber/cynabal.

just compare Nomen/Omen to zealot and you'll understand my point perfectly


Look, more people proposing more stupid changes to the Vagabond when all it needs is a second falloff bonus.