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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1861 - 2013-08-09 08:39:29 UTC
Thanks to the rail buff the eagle is going from 'sucks' to 'meh.' What really works against it is that a beam zealot is better at doing damage until about 100k off and that is too small an amount of time spent moving for most fleets to give up on a higher base damage.

However, the eagle has secured the role of general use sniper in high and low because it can actually hit things that are smaller than battleships and that are orbiting at less than 30km.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1862 - 2013-08-09 10:12:38 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Thanks to the rail buff the eagle is going from 'sucks' to 'meh.' What really works against it is that a beam zealot is better at doing damage until about 100k off and that is too small an amount of time spent moving for most fleets to give up on a higher base damage.

However, the eagle has secured the role of general use sniper in high and low because it can actually hit things that are smaller than battleships and that are orbiting at less than 30km.


The Eagle actually outdamages the Beam zealot past 50K.

Im just saying.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#1863 - 2013-08-09 10:26:59 UTC
All I gotta say is, LOVING HAC 5!!

(Might even come back and start playing Shocked)

lol
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1864 - 2013-08-09 12:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Thanks to the rail buff the eagle is going from 'sucks' to 'meh.' What really works against it is that a beam zealot is better at doing damage until about 100k off and that is too small an amount of time spent moving for most fleets to give up on a higher base damage.

However, the eagle has secured the role of general use sniper in high and low because it can actually hit things that are smaller than battleships and that are orbiting at less than 30km.


there is also to consider that the beam zealot cannot fit a tank at all with the largest guns fitted , whereas the eagle can get up to 80k ehp and fit its largest guns with only one fitting mod

Edit: actually the zealot can fit a tank and biggest guns, but it has to give up both its rigs for powergrid, and thanks to the cpu buff , it gets pretty good resists too.

[Zealot, beam+tank]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

numbers are with all skills V and without links

-42k ehp average , 30k ehp towards thermal, 1500 m/s


-626 dps at 26k+13 with a tracking of 0,037 rad/s with navy MF
or
417 dps at 52k+13 with same tracking with navy standard
or
363dps at 93k+13 with a tracking of 0,0092 with aurora

-the ship will have a locking range of 93k without any sort of fleet boosts and about 103 with basic leadership skills, so no need of sensor booster at all.

pretty good contender against naga / ABC fleets imho

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1865 - 2013-08-09 13:26:47 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Fail fit eh? its not entirely hard to fit a med newt on a brutix shield or armor, not to mention dule newt cyclones, dule or triple newt prophecys, dule newt vexors, dule med newt navy vexor, duel med newt navy aurgors, and plently of other stuff. And just so we are clear 2-4 people vs one is not a blob, people have friends and they are likely to bring at least some so your more than likely going to run into more newts, ewar, or dps than you can handel eventualy if not right off the bat.I admit the ships going to be quite powerful but there will be counters and as the ship gets more popular more counters will be made, thats how eve works.


Well, said, but I don't think you're going to get through to him. He seems to be convinced that the balance of Eve is dependent on all ships being leveled one a 1v1 playing field. There's not much else to say. Bottom line, he'll be unhappy until he can solo kill a Deimos with his favorite ship.

I'm reminded of an old quote...

"CCP, this is Scissors. Nerf rock. Paper is fine."


My favorit part was when he said you cant count BS newts because BSs always beat hacs so your dead either way, when its commen knowledge that Hacs are one of the best counters to BSs because they can so easily get under their guns with low sig high tank. Of course hacs being anti BS kinda grew out of style because T1 cruiser gangs and AF gangs do it for way cheeper.

L2p, hac fleets are a counter, not a single hac. In a fleet you don't active tank, solo you do, solo a bs will almost always beat a hac.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1866 - 2013-08-09 13:33:11 UTC
94 pages... is this train wreck still going?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1867 - 2013-08-09 13:34:12 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

L2p, hac fleets are a counter, not a single hac. In a fleet you don't active tank, solo you do, solo a bs will almost always beat a hac.


This is very very very heavily dependent on the BS involved... If a BS does not have more than 1 heavy nuet, and does not have 2x webs, it's going to die a very long drawn out death to pretty much any hac pilot with half a brain.

There is this crazy concept called manually orbiting at less than 500m, this allows BCs to mitigate large amounts of damage against a bs even while webbed... If a bc can significantly reduce the dmg of a BS, I'm pretty sure a HAC, that's faster and much smaller can do it far better.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1868 - 2013-08-09 14:01:45 UTC
You can counter manual piloting by lowering transversal yourself. Against a nomral orbiting hac you can do the webbing trick.


Its not like a hac cant beat a bs, but that engagement usually tends to favor the bs.


But that isnt really important, what is important is that even if a ship tends to get neuted, blobbed or primaried it doesnt mean it should get a op tank, which is exactly what the deimos is getting.

The old bonus, albeit far from perfect was a lot better, it allowed for kiter to mwd longer and it gave brawlers more cap, it wasnt useless in fleets nor was it op in solo stuff. It wasnt that good a bonus (flat cap boni usually arent that great) but it was a balanced one.

The rep bonus itself wouldnt be that bad (still bad design as it puts ships in once role) but a flat 15% buff to all reps on top means over a 52% increase in rep ability over tq.

Lastly, becuase it annoys me, @ CCP how can you listen to people who complain that the mwd bonus only was good for kiting ship and fits that use their mwd a lot, those people clearly have no idea what they are taking about.

I.e.

Its a bonus that reduces the amount of cap a ship loses when it fits a mwd (if you do not know that fitting a mwd reduces the cap on a ship by a flat amount and that t2 reduces less cap then meta you should not comment on any ship balancing issues ever), it was so potent that a deimos with a mwd fitted had more cap then without.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1869 - 2013-08-09 14:14:51 UTC
Why do you think the Deimos tank is "op"? What is the threshold for "op tank"?

.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#1870 - 2013-08-09 14:20:47 UTC
The new Deimos makes me wiggle with excitement. I can wait to apply a dual rep fit to it. On top of the 15% rep buff, SWEET JESUS will that thing be good.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1871 - 2013-08-09 14:51:23 UTC
Roime wrote:
Why do you think the Deimos tank is "op"? What is the threshold for "op tank"?



I have no real threshod, but if a cruiser ship can reach 1 k tank before links or implants something is wrong.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1872 - 2013-08-09 15:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
*snip*

Lastly, becuase it annoys me, @ CCP how can you listen to people who complain that the mwd bonus only was good for kiting ship and fits that use their mwd a lot, those people clearly have no idea what they are taking about.

I.e.

Its a bonus that reduces the amount of cap a ship loses when it fits a mwd (if you do not know that fitting a mwd reduces the cap on a ship by a flat amount and that t2 reduces less cap then meta you should not comment on any ship balancing issues ever), it was so potent that a deimos with a mwd fitted had more cap then without.


How do you complain about a rep bonus putting it into a roll when a MWD bonus is not much diferant, if you fit an AB instead of a MWD its a waisted mwd bonus, if you go for a shield MWD fit the rep bonus is waisted. Not only that but becaus eall Hacs got a better cap per second, and the deimos got some more again when it lost its MWD bonus, so its really no worse off.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1873 - 2013-08-09 15:45:16 UTC
I havnt said its a good bonus, it howver is usefull on a couple of fits, not just active tanked one (and yes, there is a difference between mwd and reps, mwd fits are much more commong, abs are exrteme niche).

I just am saying its tank potential is overpowered, which is bad.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1874 - 2013-08-09 15:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Roime wrote:
Why do you think the Deimos tank is "op"? What is the threshold for "op tank"?



I have no real threshod, but if a cruiser ship can reach 1 k tank before links or implants something is wrong.



Wolf dude, you're comparison are so one sided it's honestly hard not to laugh most of the time.

For example, comparing a dual xl asb eagle to the deimos w/o even mentioning cap usage/susceptibility...
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1875 - 2013-08-09 16:27:04 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Roime wrote:
Why do you think the Deimos tank is "op"? What is the threshold for "op tank"?



I have no real threshod, but if a cruiser ship can reach 1 k tank before links or implants something is wrong.



Wolf dude, you're comparison are so one sided it's honestly hard not to laugh most of the time.

For example, comparing a dual xl asb eagle to the deimos w/o even mentioning cap usage/susceptibility...


If a dual asb egale gets neuted its dead, its weapons need cap, no difference there.


And try to fit a dual xlasb eagle.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1876 - 2013-08-09 16:43:07 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Roime wrote:
Why do you think the Deimos tank is "op"? What is the threshold for "op tank"?



I have no real threshod, but if a cruiser ship can reach 1 k tank before links or implants something is wrong.



Wolf dude, you're comparison are so one sided it's honestly hard not to laugh most of the time.

For example, comparing a dual xl asb eagle to the deimos w/o even mentioning cap usage/susceptibility...


If a dual asb egale gets neuted its dead, its weapons need cap, no difference there.


And try to fit a dual xlasb eagle.


Are you honestly trying to say that there is no difference in survivability between a dual xl asb eagle and a deimos when dealing with heavy nuetage?

Again dude, your posts are comical.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1877 - 2013-08-09 17:05:06 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
I havnt said its a good bonus, it howver is usefull on a couple of fits, not just active tanked one (and yes, there is a difference between mwd and reps, mwd fits are much more commong, abs are exrteme niche).

I just am saying its tank potential is overpowered, which is bad.


I have to admit that having flown the dule rep fleet stabber and being able to take on almost any other ship 1v1 that The deimos with better rep, better damage, better resists dose sound a bit powerful, but I still think that people will easily come up with counters, such as amarr, mimatar, or galent recons, AFs and more. I just dont think that having a ship thats really good at solo pvp is a bad thing, I think others such as the Cerb and the Sac will do great aswell. I think overall we need to wait for it to hit the test server and maybe Tranquility then nerf the rep amount if needed. I think your going to see allot more skirmish Deimos than duel rep ones in the end, just because small gang skirmish is way more popular than solo hunting.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1878 - 2013-08-09 19:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
For some real bonuses:

Quote:
ISHTAR

...

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to (ALL) Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to (ALL) Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Slot layout: 5H (-0), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145


oh, and rethink your 7.5% Alliance Tournament recoiling non-sense. The previous 10% bonus is appropriate for a drone boat.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1879 - 2013-08-09 19:36:59 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
I havnt said its a good bonus, it howver is usefull on a couple of fits, not just active tanked one (and yes, there is a difference between mwd and reps, mwd fits are much more commong, abs are exrteme niche).

I just am saying its tank potential is overpowered, which is bad.


I have to admit that having flown the dule rep fleet stabber and being able to take on almost any other ship 1v1 that The deimos with better rep, better damage, better resists dose sound a bit powerful, but I still think that people will easily come up with counters, such as amarr, mimatar, or galent recons, AFs and more. I just dont think that having a ship thats really good at solo pvp is a bad thing, I think others such as the Cerb and the Sac will do great aswell. I think overall we need to wait for it to hit the test server and maybe Tranquility then nerf the rep amount if needed. I think your going to see allot more skirmish Deimos than duel rep ones in the end, just because small gang skirmish is way more popular than solo hunting.


You can counter everything tho, not really a argument tbh. In hac defences the deimos tank seems op, its offensive power is euqal or greater then the damage of its peers.

And @ the eagle guy, firstly it tanks less, it also is nealry impossible to fit and if you do you gimp your fit so badly it doesnt work anymore. And yes under extremly heavy neuting the deimos is clearly superior, it isnt able to tank as much but it poses a chance, a curse would murder a eagle for example, it neuts its guns off leaving it pointless (no you cant fit a nos nor a cap booster) and without any damage at all, the deimos would win. Yes it tank stays up (barely, under full bhaalghorn neuts you are looking at 400 dps tank of a deimos vs 600dps tank of the eagle).
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1880 - 2013-08-09 19:39:13 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
And yes under extremly heavy neuting the deimos is clearly superior


Stop posting