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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1821 - 2013-08-08 12:15:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
.

THat is why ancient eve balance was more fun, and way better. It had clear zones.. races were balanced..


Please stop posting, "ancient" eve was one of the most poorly balanced games I've ever played... I'd advise you to take off your nostalgia goggles before making timeline comparisons like this, thanks!
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1822 - 2013-08-08 12:26:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Seems like someone might be emotionally attached to a hull and a role, but the hull they are attached to doesn't fit the role they want. Hulls are not all-in-one. You pick a balance between gank, tank, support, drones, etc. Not a ship exists that lacks a weakness.

The hybrid blaster Proteus with PCM/FEP/HPA/AP/LI subs and a full set of slave implants is about as expensive and beasty as you can go in a solo PVP hull, and it can be whittled away by a number of ships once its drones are knocked down and its cap drained. I'm starting to think some of the commenters want to fly a tech 3 at the price point of an AHAC.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1823 - 2013-08-08 12:45:04 UTC
Romar Thel wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)



ok, and where is the actual boosting?


This at least take out one low and gives a med , if you wont budge on the bonus.



Another med would make it quite more versatile and OP. Slots are fine as they are now.

Atm it has the worst tank, bad dmg and even worse dmg application it's falloff is bad.

Vagabond's role should be (and always was) to apply dmg from disruptor range while it relies on its speed in order not to get in stasis/scram range. This is why new bonus is indeed ridiculous and it's dmg is not equal to the other HACs/t1 cruisers (oops).


Err i agree with you , but if the dev isnt changing the bonus i really i don't see any vaga going in close range with a tank of 2 slots sorry but that is ridiculous, and telling that with 5 meds it would be overpower well i dont really agree.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1824 - 2013-08-08 12:47:51 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.


Posting a fit under full links dosent prove the ship isent terible, it just shows you need links to make it decwnt compaired to the rest. Not only that but if your going to sniper fit that eagle you are going to need to fit a sebo, either to actualy lock out to your spike range, or actualy lock anything before it warps off. Even with the rail buff i doubt you will see many more eagles sniping than you do today, the naga just has it in a strangel hold, and is cheeper.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1825 - 2013-08-08 13:08:37 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.


Posting a fit under full links dosent prove the ship isent terible, it just shows you need links to make it decwnt compaired to the rest. Not only that but if your going to sniper fit that eagle you are going to need to fit a sebo, either to actualy lock out to your spike range, or actualy lock anything before it warps off. Even with the rail buff i doubt you will see many more eagles sniping than you do today, the naga just has it in a strangel hold, and is cheeper.



I'm pretty sure you will find every single gang with any serious intentions has dual links these days.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#1826 - 2013-08-08 13:11:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)


You may wish to update the first post regarding the Zealot CPU :)
dR PaNouKLa
Perkone
Caldari State
#1827 - 2013-08-08 13:22:09 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
dR PaNouKLa wrote:
Thankfully Deimos/Cerberus can do the same job, but better than vaga now. They have quite more EHP, more damage, better range, more agility and a little less speed after these changes...


This is the first time I ever heard someone call a 30% difference "a little". In that case, sure, Vindicator only has a little more dps than the blaster Rokh... :p



Deimos:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)

Vaga:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 295(+56) / .504 / 11590000 / 8.1s


That's not that bad...
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1828 - 2013-08-08 13:38:12 UTC
I'm not asking for damage or engagement range; I'm talking about sig to speed, which is needed for cruisers to deal with battleship sized weaponry. For what is intended, I think the tank, damage, and projection are good. I just think it needs a little more speed and a little less size to make it better fit said intended role.

Hell, Lloyd, I'm projecting it with republic fleet extenders (most of the better equipped zealot gangs used dark blood hardeners for ~200m after fitting. Current prices put eagle with republic fleet extenders at about the same) for a little bit better signature. It's still coming in a little bit on the large side for a cruiser with skirmish boosts active, though. It gets a little bit more off with a MWD, but that may just be how the ship ends up being flown to keep range.

I'd like to see a rail fleet after the expansion, but am not sure it will happen. The eagle has had these ranges and similar tanks before, and we still haven't seen it. It just doesn't have what makes the zealot attractive as a fleet doctrine. After the medium weapon rebalance, I don't know. Rails are losing a significant amount of tracking, which is going to essentially negate half of the buff they're receiving against cruisers and below.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1829 - 2013-08-08 14:04:28 UTC
dR PaNouKLa wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
dR PaNouKLa wrote:
Thankfully Deimos/Cerberus can do the same job, but better than vaga now. They have quite more EHP, more damage, better range, more agility and a little less speed after these changes...


This is the first time I ever heard someone call a 30% difference "a little". In that case, sure, Vindicator only has a little more dps than the blaster Rokh... :p



Deimos:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)

Vaga:
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 295(+56) / .504 / 11590000 / 8.1s


That's not that bad...


its far from fair though its crazy that minnie get such massive advantages over the rest ... 180 on eagle compared to 295 are these ships even in the same class??????? not to mention that minnie have higher T2 resists

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
dR PaNouKLa
Perkone
Caldari State
#1830 - 2013-08-08 14:08:01 UTC
Yes... if you consider that the eagle can hit from 250km and vaga has half dmg at 25km...

It's not an advantage, it's different role.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1831 - 2013-08-08 14:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Fewell
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.


God forbid you have to chose between firepower or tank.



They want both, 70K EHP 800dps at 40km with autocanons 7500m/s with 100mn AB and and a extra slot/fittings for Xl'asb but theirs will get an extra bonus, will use no cap nor charges and reps 150% per cycle when heat -heat dmg 0%

Roll

Straw men are fun. The sensible people still speaking about the Vaga don't want more than a switching of the boosting bonus for another fall-off bonus so we can use ammo that isn't barrage at point range on the 220s we can can currently fit.

Now let me try. You want one of the fastest cruisers in the game to get super silly when you undock it with your HG crystals, blue pill and your loki and tengu links so you and your buddies can dump over everything you come across or GTFO as needed.
Was that as accurate a representation of your views as your representation was of those who still want work on the Vaga?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1832 - 2013-08-08 14:39:57 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Get out, you have nothing to say in a balancing thread, and with that attitude nothing you say should be taken seriously.


If you want a game where races have no real flavor and only offer different skins on identically performing classes, Star Wars: The Old Republic is free to play. That's not what Eve is about. Our races have real differences with different styles of play and different strengths/weaknesses. We'd like it to stay that way. Choosing to train for racial ships means something in Eve. You want all brawling cruisers to have total parity? Go play an Orgre swashbuckler in Everquest 2..


There is a difference between races beeing similar and beeing balanced, you can balance stuff by making it different. That in no way means that stuff should be op, beeing the best brawler/kiter in its class does not mean op, op means beeing a whole lot better at it and beeing to strong in general.

Which the deimos with these changes is. The t2 resitances act as a rep boost on their own, once you introduce the rep buff that is also comming and then add the role bonus on top you achieve silly numbers.

The new deimos tanks ca 85% more on a single booster then a t1 cruisers that is on tq right now. And thats before you adress the fact that due to how resitance change fits the % rises yet again, or that its fitting allows it to fit without compromise.

The biggest problem is the fact that all hacs are deisgned atm as brawlers (even the vaga with its asb boost), having one brawler to ebat them all is bad design.



Also, people who claim neuts are a problem dont know what they are talking about, i theory they are right but due to the death of the cane meta utility neuts are very rare and mostly used on kiters if they are used at all. This leaves neuts on specialized ships i.e curse and co, in which case youd be ****** anyways and battleships, but bs **** over hacs anyways so youd be dead either way.

Normal ships running around dont tend to be neut heavy, the meta isnt neut heavy at all, this as i already mentioned is due to the fact that canes are dead and that asbs were so common and as everyone knows, those cant be neuted.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1833 - 2013-08-08 15:12:17 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.


Posting a fit under full links dosent prove the ship isent terible, it just shows you need links to make it decwnt compaired to the rest. Not only that but if your going to sniper fit that eagle you are going to need to fit a sebo, either to actualy lock out to your spike range, or actualy lock anything before it warps off. Even with the rail buff i doubt you will see many more eagles sniping than you do today, the naga just has it in a strangel hold, and is cheeper.



I'm pretty sure you will find every single gang with any serious intentions has dual links these days.


Your missing the point by a mile, saying the eagle is good under links is fine, but so are most ships, the problem is that the eagle is terible without links and the rest of the HaCs are not. So his fit with links has no bearing on making the eagles base usefulness on par with the rest. Its like saying intercepters dont need buffs they just need links and halo sets
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1834 - 2013-08-08 15:21:48 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.

And the Eagle's true calling is revealed
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1835 - 2013-08-08 15:27:38 UTC
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1836 - 2013-08-08 15:40:02 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


It tells us that the claymore needs more speed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1837 - 2013-08-08 16:06:29 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


It tells us that the claymore needs more speed.


Why?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#1838 - 2013-08-08 16:46:24 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Get out, you have nothing to say in a balancing thread, and with that attitude nothing you say should be taken seriously.


If you want a game where races have no real flavor and only offer different skins on identically performing classes, Star Wars: The Old Republic is free to play. That's not what Eve is about. Our races have real differences with different styles of play and different strengths/weaknesses. We'd like it to stay that way. Choosing to train for racial ships means something in Eve. You want all brawling cruisers to have total parity? Go play an Orgre swashbuckler in Everquest 2..


There is a difference between races beeing similar and beeing balanced, you can balance stuff by making it different. That in no way means that stuff should be op, beeing the best brawler/kiter in its class does not mean op, op means beeing a whole lot better at it and beeing to strong in general.

Which the deimos with these changes is. The t2 resitances act as a rep boost on their own, once you introduce the rep buff that is also comming and then add the role bonus on top you achieve silly numbers.

The new deimos tanks ca 85% more on a single booster then a t1 cruisers that is on tq right now. And thats before you adress the fact that due to how resitance change fits the % rises yet again, or that its fitting allows it to fit without compromise.

The biggest problem is the fact that all hacs are deisgned atm as brawlers (even the vaga with its asb boost), having one brawler to ebat them all is bad design.



Also, people who claim neuts are a problem dont know what they are talking about, i theory they are right but due to the death of the cane meta utility neuts are very rare and mostly used on kiters if they are used at all. This leaves neuts on specialized ships i.e curse and co, in which case youd be ****** anyways and battleships, but bs **** over hacs anyways so youd be dead either way.

Normal ships running around dont tend to be neut heavy, the meta isnt neut heavy at all, this as i already mentioned is due to the fact that canes are dead and that asbs were so common and as everyone knows, those cant be neuted.


So the Deimos excels in solo / small scale pvp. Bet it doesn't do too well against a few T3 bc's calling it primary. I think local reppers should play a larger role in the game; buffers are the tank style of choice for most pvp as it is.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1839 - 2013-08-08 16:57:29 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.


Posting a fit under full links dosent prove the ship isent terible, it just shows you need links to make it decwnt compaired to the rest. Not only that but if your going to sniper fit that eagle you are going to need to fit a sebo, either to actualy lock out to your spike range, or actualy lock anything before it warps off. Even with the rail buff i doubt you will see many more eagles sniping than you do today, the naga just has it in a strangel hold, and is cheeper.



I'm pretty sure you will find every single gang with any serious intentions has dual links these days.


Your missing the point by a mile, saying the eagle is good under links is fine, but so are most ships, the problem is that the eagle is terible without links and the rest of the HaCs are not. So his fit with links has no bearing on making the eagles base usefulness on par with the rest. Its like saying intercepters dont need buffs they just need links and halo sets


The Eagle is obviously designed with fleet work in mind, so yes I applied links to the fit.

Comparing it to a linked Naga it has almost tripple the EHP vs Omni and 5x the EHP versus a Naga, looses 200 DPS and has a tiny sig.

People who think every fight is about ERMERGED I HAVE MOAR ALFA N DPS I WIN are just wrong.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1840 - 2013-08-08 17:54:17 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


People who think every fight is about ERMERGED I HAVE MOAR ALFA N DPS I WIN are just wrong.


Exactly. That's why I think the eagle needs, in addition to it's current plans, a better speed to sig ratio so that it can compete where HACs have shined already in fleet fights. Tank, damage and projection are currently fine. The sig is going to be worse anyway because of the shield extenders and rigs. This is fine, because it has other advantages it can use. But it'll need the size and speed to be able to come in short range to survive battleship class weaponry.

Hard tackle then becomes an issue for the eagle, as it should be. Give the huginns and bellicoses (bellicosi?) something to do.