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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1801 - 2013-08-08 10:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1802 - 2013-08-08 10:30:33 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
No. My argument is that Eve doesn't want or need perfect balance and that having a best in category is just fine. If everything could get identical performance, this game would be boring.



Nope, at all.

Player skill AND experience should make the difference, not an unexplainable ultra boosted beyond reason whatever ship with OGB twink script safe at the POS.

You're clearly not making the difference in between different tools doing the same thing in the same time limit and uncreative thinking where the "smarter" would obviously go for the OP stuff and "dumb" for everything else. There's nothing smart or dumb in those choices but a lack of options of equally viable tools.

I'm pretty sure every single solo elite pvp fan of solo alt falcon and solo alt logi with the obvious solo boosting ship park at the pos think they're the best SOLO pvp guys earth internet and even the universe has ever seen...

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1803 - 2013-08-08 10:36:49 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
No. My argument is that Eve doesn't want or need perfect balance and that having a best in category is just fine. If everything could get identical performance, this game would be boring.



Nope, at all.

Player skill AND experience should make the difference, not an unexplainable ultra boosted beyond reason whatever ship with OGB twink script safe at the POS.

You're clearly not making the difference in between different tools doing the same thing in the same time limit and uncreative thinking where the "smarter" would obviously go for the OP stuff and "dumb" for everything else. There's nothing smart or dumb in those choices but a lack of options of equally viable tools.

I'm pretty sure every single solo elite pvp fan of solo alt falcon and solo alt logi with the obvious solo boosting ship park at the pos think they're the best SOLO pvp guys earth internet and even the universe has ever seen...



no.. you are wrong. HE is right. Perfect balance within class is DULL and dumb.

THat is why ancient eve balance was more fun, and way better. It had clear zones.. races were balanced.. but within a same class or role there was Healthy unbalance. Minmatar ships were CLEAR choices for hit and run but had the weakest battleships and capitals, Blaster boats were clear choices for in your face fights but gallente had huge gap on covering the kiting fight style, Ravens were the best long range support things ( Cruise missiles with Dampeners era) but had difficulty playing solo, ammar had the best large ships but the weakest frigates and cruisers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1804 - 2013-08-08 10:37:29 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1805 - 2013-08-08 10:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.



nonono, it's superbad... cause you know... ABCs are so much better at those ranges Roll Given no one shoots back :|
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1806 - 2013-08-08 10:47:48 UTC
Quote:
Get out, you have nothing to say in a balancing thread, and with that attitude nothing you say should be taken seriously.


If you want a game where races have no real flavor and only offer different skins on identically performing classes, Star Wars: The Old Republic is free to play. That's not what Eve is about. Our races have real differences with different styles of play and different strengths/weaknesses. We'd like it to stay that way. Choosing to train for racial ships means something in Eve. You want all brawling cruisers to have total parity? Go play an Orgre swashbuckler in Everquest 2.

Quote:
[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.


This answered my question about the numbers, and I have to agree with this poster. This ship looks to be about as valid a fleet ship as any. How about you go look at the people complaining about some of the other ships with much more lackluster numbers for a little perspective here. You have a ship that can project antimatter dps at 78 km. Sorry, but if you think it needs a buff, I think the problem is more in how you've been using the ship than the ship itself. The ship has all the potential in the world as it stands.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1807 - 2013-08-08 10:51:04 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



http://i.imgur.com/SK4ktTS.png - absolutely terrible.


PS: 480dps@45km using antimatter, @53 with rangescript.



480DPS at 45 km with battleship tank Shocked seems pretty balanced to me.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1808 - 2013-08-08 10:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Lloyd Roses wrote:
nonono, it's superbad... cause you know... ABCs are so much better at those ranges Roll Given no one shoots back :|



ABCs indeed have higher alpha/dps at those ranges but with what? -15/17K EHP?

If you push any ABC tank to limits those become slow briks T2 fitted with noob dps, even then 35K at best with links in gangs imho (haven't check this earlier)

Then unless you have 20/30 Arty Nados alpha one shot that Eagle I'm pretty sure those Eagles will gtfo or be at the right range to actually apply 470dps/300x20 and pop those Nados 1 by one, specially T2 ships with high resist profile making incoming reps exponentially better vs glass canons with resist holes everywhere if they want to spew some decent dmg or target in reasonable delays.


At least that one will be able to shoot at 100km AND have a tank.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1809 - 2013-08-08 11:26:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



no.. you are wrong. HE is right. Perfect balance within class is DULL and dumb.

THat is why ancient eve balance was more fun, and way better. It had clear zones.. races were balanced.. but within a same class or role there was Healthy unbalance. Minmatar ships were CLEAR choices for hit and run but had the weakest battleships and capitals, Blaster boats were clear choices for in your face fights but gallente had huge gap on covering the kiting fight style, Ravens were the best long range support things ( Cruise missiles with Dampeners era) but had difficulty playing solo, ammar had the best large ships but the weakest frigates and cruisers.


Yes lets go back to a time when most of the ships were useless because they could do nothing to the handful that were good.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1810 - 2013-08-08 11:32:12 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.


Makes me wish i could fit a similar tank on my heavy beam zealot.

I also find it funny that you cry about the vaga needing an ACR to fit dual extenders + 425's but not that the eagle needs one to fit its largest guns and a tank

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1811 - 2013-08-08 11:39:51 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.


Makes me wish i could fit a similar tank on my heavy beam zealot.

I also find it funny that you cry about the vaga needing an ACR to fit dual extenders + 425's but not that the eagle needs one to fit its largest guns and a tank


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1812 - 2013-08-08 11:45:01 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.


God forbid you have to chose between firepower or tank.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1813 - 2013-08-08 11:46:45 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.




If you do that you're doing it wrong all down the hill.

Fit 720's and make it a-a-insta-cane but loking faster and as much tank with smaller sign? -of course it's possible

If you want to fit tank and use arties go Munnin, that what he's meant for.


What you're saying there makes no sense, it's like if you were trying to snipe with rails ishtar forgetting his bonus are drones one...well vaga is about the same and on top is about 750m/s faster than any other hac without gimp whatsoever.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1814 - 2013-08-08 11:50:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.


God forbid you have to chose between firepower or tank.



They want both, 70K EHP 800dps at 40km with autocanons 7500m/s with 100mn AB and and a extra slot/fittings for Xl'asb but theirs will get an extra bonus, will use no cap nor charges and reps 150% per cycle when heat -heat dmg 0%

Roll

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1815 - 2013-08-08 11:53:13 UTC
Forgive them, minnie pilots are used to fitting the biggest guns, two T2 medium neuts on an all T2 fit without any fitting mods.

.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1816 - 2013-08-08 11:58:20 UTC
Romar Thel wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)



ok, and where is the actual boosting?


This at least take out one low and gives a med , if you wont budge on the bonus.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1817 - 2013-08-08 12:01:13 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.


It appears to go 2453 m/s, about 1000 m/s faster than the Eagle.
dR PaNouKLa
Perkone
Caldari State
#1818 - 2013-08-08 12:04:21 UTC
Vaga's new bonus is rediculous.
A falloff and a bit more damage would make more sense.
CPU and PGD are just fine as was.

And then maybe the fact that it is quite fragile (the lowsest EHP HAC by far) can compensate for its high speed. (It's not that faster now after all this agility/speed changes in other hacs while it remains bad in dmg-range).


Thankfully Deimos/Cerberus can do the same job, but better than vaga now. They have quite more EHP, more damage, better range, more agility and a little less speed after these changes...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1819 - 2013-08-08 12:13:50 UTC
dR PaNouKLa wrote:
Thankfully Deimos/Cerberus can do the same job, but better than vaga now. They have quite more EHP, more damage, better range, more agility and a little less speed after these changes...


This is the first time I ever heard someone call a 30% difference "a little". In that case, sure, Vindicator only has a little more dps than the blaster Rokh... :p
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1820 - 2013-08-08 12:14:34 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update

Vagabond powergrid raised to 900 (+45)
Zealot CPU raised to 340 (+20)



ok, and where is the actual boosting?


This at least take out one low and gives a med , if you wont budge on the bonus.



Another med would make it quite more versatile and OP. Slots are fine as they are now.

Atm it has the worst tank, bad dmg and even worse dmg application it's falloff is bad.

Vagabond's role should be (and always was) to apply dmg from disruptor range while it relies on its speed in order not to get in stasis/scram range. This is why new bonus is indeed ridiculous and it's dmg is not equal to the other HACs/t1 cruisers (oops).