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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1641 - 2013-08-06 18:54:31 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Considering Apocs can be modified to do the same thing as Gardes in terms of tracking, range and dps why do you think they still went with sentries?


Simple, you can damp Apocalypses so they can't target you. You can ECM them so they lose their lock on you. You can TD them to stop them applying any dps to you.

Meanwhile the Sentries carry on shooting providing the Domi (or whatever drone ship) just re-assigns them to someone who has you locked. All you can do is kill them, which isn't a fast process in most cases.

This is why Sentries rocked in the tourney, I'm looking forward to seeing how they get used on TQ now - I think it was a massive eye opener, even knowing that the lack of mobility will be an issue on TQ.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1642 - 2013-08-06 19:08:18 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

a talos cannot get close to the range/tracking on gardes.

Stop bullshitting.

Range, no Tracking yes.

Gardes cant come close to the tank or speed of a talos though

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1643 - 2013-08-06 19:14:51 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


Drones did not.blasters or rails

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1644 - 2013-08-06 19:30:19 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Considering Apocs can be modified to do the same thing as Gardes in terms of tracking, range and dps why do you think they still went with sentries?


Simple, you can damp Apocalypses so they can't target you. You can ECM them so they lose their lock on you. You can TD them to stop them applying any dps to you.

Meanwhile the Sentries carry on shooting providing the Domi (or whatever drone ship) just re-assigns them to someone who has you locked. All you can do is kill them, which isn't a fast process in most cases.

This is why Sentries rocked in the tourney, I'm looking forward to seeing how they get used on TQ now - I think it was a massive eye opener, even knowing that the lack of mobility will be an issue on TQ.


It does bring up concerns that if you can't get close enough to kill them then what is the counter exactly?
Surely the drones should work more like guns in that they can be affected by things like ecm , damps etc...
The set of drones treated as 1 module i.e. as guns are and as they are connected to the parent ship should be affected by whatever affects the parent ship and at least sentries shouldn't be assignable to any other ship,

Perhaps only ships with similar bandwidth can handle them being assigned to them but then only that ships bonuses apply to the drones.. so
- Domi assigns sentries to another ship with 125 mb say a Geddon, the sentries are then only bonused by the geddon not the domi.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1645 - 2013-08-06 19:43:03 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


Drones did not.blasters or rails

True.

Also, tournament arena with boundaries and no way to reposition played to the drones favor.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1646 - 2013-08-06 19:51:21 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
It does bring up concerns that if you can't get close enough to kill them then what is the counter exactly?
Surely the drones should work more like guns in that they can be affected by things like ecm , damps etc...


I've been pondering similar. I'd perhaps like to see TD/Damp/ECM against the drone-owner ship impact the drones that it is controlling. Not necessarily to the full values, but just to *some* extent.
Would need a lot of balancing though, at the end of the day the game needs to be balanced around TQ, not Alliance Tournament.

Definitely a conversation for another thread though.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1647 - 2013-08-06 19:53:09 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Mr Floydy wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Considering Apocs can be modified to do the same thing as Gardes in terms of tracking, range and dps why do you think they still went with sentries?


Simple, you can damp Apocalypses so they can't target you. You can ECM them so they lose their lock on you. You can TD them to stop them applying any dps to you.

Meanwhile the Sentries carry on shooting providing the Domi (or whatever drone ship) just re-assigns them to someone who has you locked. All you can do is kill them, which isn't a fast process in most cases.

This is why Sentries rocked in the tourney, I'm looking forward to seeing how they get used on TQ now - I think it was a massive eye opener, even knowing that the lack of mobility will be an issue on TQ.


It does bring up concerns that if you can't get close enough to kill them then what is the counter exactly?
Surely the drones should work more like guns in that they can be affected by things like ecm , damps etc...
The set of drones treated as 1 module i.e. as guns are and as they are connected to the parent ship should be affected by whatever affects the parent ship and at least sentries shouldn't be assignable to any other ship,

Perhaps only ships with similar bandwidth can handle them being assigned to them but then only that ships bonuses apply to the drones.. so
- Domi assigns sentries to another ship with 125 mb say a Geddon, the sentries are then only bonused by the geddon not the domi.

I have to say that last point is extremely valid. If you assign your drones to another ship, that ship assumes command and control of them and its bonuses (or lack there of) should apply.

Regardless, a ship should never be able to control more drones than it has bandwidth for. I know its a clever meta currently, but we should never see a situation occur where several hundred sentry drones all respond to a single click.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1648 - 2013-08-06 19:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Ranger 1 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Mr Floydy wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Considering Apocs can be modified to do the same thing as Gardes in terms of tracking, range and dps why do you think they still went with sentries?


Simple, you can damp Apocalypses so they can't target you. You can ECM them so they lose their lock on you. You can TD them to stop them applying any dps to you.

Meanwhile the Sentries carry on shooting providing the Domi (or whatever drone ship) just re-assigns them to someone who has you locked. All you can do is kill them, which isn't a fast process in most cases.

This is why Sentries rocked in the tourney, I'm looking forward to seeing how they get used on TQ now - I think it was a massive eye opener, even knowing that the lack of mobility will be an issue on TQ.


It does bring up concerns that if you can't get close enough to kill them then what is the counter exactly?
Surely the drones should work more like guns in that they can be affected by things like ecm , damps etc...
The set of drones treated as 1 module i.e. as guns are and as they are connected to the parent ship should be affected by whatever affects the parent ship and at least sentries shouldn't be assignable to any other ship,

Perhaps only ships with similar bandwidth can handle them being assigned to them but then only that ships bonuses apply to the drones.. so
- Domi assigns sentries to another ship with 125 mb say a Geddon, the sentries are then only bonused by the geddon not the domi.

I have to say that last point is extremely valid. If you assign your drones to another ship, that ship assumes command and control of them and its bonuses (or lack there of) should apply.

Regardless, a ship should never be able to control more drones than it has bandwidth for. I know its a clever meta currently, but we should never see a situation occur where several hundred sentry drones all respond to a single click.


mm.. true ... i was thinking that maybe a new module could be for this exact thing in a high slot maybe fittings like a gun perhaps with certain limits ... like range and can only handle an extra 125 mb

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#1649 - 2013-08-06 19:58:52 UTC
much, much, much better on the diemios!

Thanks Rise.
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1650 - 2013-08-06 20:00:15 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
It would be nice if the Eagle could kite with blasters about 20km and do decent damage with a way of dealing with frigs and having the speed and agility to actually keep range.. unfortunately apparently this isn't allowed by RISE who thinks it has to remain a slightly ******** sniper ... even though the Naga and Talos can both out snipe it.


Kiting with blasters...

Yeah no.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1651 - 2013-08-06 20:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Is it that hard to make a Gallente blaster boat that doesn't have that god damn stupid useless rep bonus on it?

Or, I dunno, maybe an armor rep system that doesn't need 5 slots to utilize it effectively?

Quote:
We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.


Yes except that armor rep bonus, which is entirely so compelling that it's begged to be removed off every ship it is ever put on.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1652 - 2013-08-06 20:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Gnoshia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
It would be nice if the Eagle could kite with blasters about 20km and do decent damage with a way of dealing with frigs and having the speed and agility to actually keep range.. unfortunately apparently this isn't allowed by RISE who thinks it has to remain a slightly ******** sniper ... even though the Naga and Talos can both out snipe it.


Kiting with blasters...

Yeah no.


Can easily be done with blasters, TEs, and null loaded. What else is the point of two 10% range bonuses. Surely you won't try to brawl when you have that advantage?


But I still agree, the eagle is pretty terrible.
BRIMTAK
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#1653 - 2013-08-06 20:42:47 UTC
Was really hoping you would have given the muninn the 4th mid slot to match the rupture
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1654 - 2013-08-06 21:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
BRIMTAK wrote:
Was really hoping you would have given the muninn the 4th mid slot to match the rupture


Or make it a missile boat.


As it stands, the cynabal does the vaga's and the munnins job better.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1655 - 2013-08-06 21:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Diesel47 wrote:
BRIMTAK wrote:
Was really hoping you would have given the muninn the 4th mid slot to match the rupture


Or make it a missile boat.




A HAM armour muninn would probably be used more than the arty muninn is now.. Tornado dominates here much like it Naga does over the eagle

Unfortunately RISE doesn't want to rock the boat here at all despite being happy too in the BS thread..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1656 - 2013-08-06 21:16:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
BRIMTAK wrote:
Was really hoping you would have given the muninn the 4th mid slot to match the rupture


Or make it a missile boat.




Unfortunately RISE doesn't want to rock the boat here at all despite being happy too in the BS thread..


Thinking is hard yo.

A lot of these changes speak to lazyness. There is a lot that could have been done to shake up gameplay (bonus to MJD maybe?) instead its more just kinda "meh"
S1dy
Uplifting Infernal Paradise
#1657 - 2013-08-06 21:17:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)


Man, did you ever noticed the real problem here?
It's SPECIALIZATION!!!!

Maybe get the HAC's into a workable role - MWD bonus is **** as hell. That works with Assault Frigates but not with HAC's because Sig/Velocity relation. Afterburner fittings are still better (around 50%).

Get your **** together and make your job. HAC's and Command Ships suck right now and will do so with your proposed changes man!
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#1658 - 2013-08-06 21:25:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)

At least you are using the present participle which gives me hope that you will do something about the new Cerb (if unaltered soon to be the old Drake for usage stats Straight). And as for the Sac and Cerb, the agility differential is absurd. The Sac will get plated and become even less mobile while the Cerb could get a nano treatment and become even more mobile (and retaining more range). Is this what you want?

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1659 - 2013-08-06 21:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
CCP Rise wrote:
smug



First, to comment on your pro/con post about page 79...

it's about 5 to 1 ratio of negative post to positive on this thread, and actually worse now than in early pages.

Secondly, you can't post about player support post when none of them can even tell you why other than.... "oh hacs are slightly better than before"

Third, you have still not received any positive support for the sacrilege, and honestly, it has absolutely no role that the zealot could not fill better/easier if dedicated to that cause besides a different weapon system.

Forth, you have not addressed cost concerns one bit when players have openly pointed out that the price point of hacs in no way accounts for their non-unique role, reduced efficiency at task compared to other ships, and other glaring flaws.

You have yet to give hac's a role.... and there is no sense of balance within even the ship class itself. There are some obvious winners and losers in the bunch.... for a class that's alerady underperforming as a whole, what does that say about the losers within the class.

=========================
Then there is the MWD role bonus for hacs has been bashed to **** and back, but you refuse to budge on it. Next to nobody has supported it, but you blindly continue to see it as a good thing... even when the predominant use of hacs doesn't even suggest using a MWD ever, if often.

=========================
Last and most important:

Fun factor: Without a role, these ships have completely lost out on the most obvious point of a rebalance... FUN.

There is just nothing unique to these ships to make them worth flying. Player's have been screaming at you for creativity, but you refuse to offer up any. What kind of smug obnoxious ass do you have to be to completely ignore what your paycheck players have been asking you for.

Nobody has asked for you to make them OP, just different in some way. But no, you refuse to even try.

Thanks for nothing.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1660 - 2013-08-06 21:36:34 UTC
RISE

When will the missile rebalance happen? small missiles/HAMS / adding missiles to TE/TC/TD

atm the cerberus will be crazy OP with HAM's having such range on them we're talking 650 dps at 35km with HAM's

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using