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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1621 - 2013-08-06 17:38:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Novah Soul wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries arent op.. the assist mechanics need some work but other then that (outside of the general work all drones need), they are fine. Sentry boats crapped over everything else because of the limited ranges of the tourny arena more then anything else. Plus I suppose smartbombs weren't allowed, as I do not recall seeing any during any matches I saw.


there were smartbombing and some teams resorted to killing the sentries as the only way of stopping the OP ness of sentries.
bottom line on sentries is
- LR BS gun range
- tracking of bs guns improvable to medium SR tracking but at 80km rather than 4km that medium blasters do... need i go on??


They track well but not medium blasters well. As said by someone else, assist mechanic is the bad thing here.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1622 - 2013-08-06 17:45:03 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries are fine, the tracking and optimal range bonus on the Dominix is probably a bit too high. I can tell because I fly Gallente. I think lowering it to 7.5% would be enough; make them fit 1 tracking link and they will need to sacrifice some tank or dps.

yeah the optimal bonus boosts the tracking aswell as you can shot from farther with the same drone type, so it become double tracking bonus + add that the drone modules are pretty good 25% both opt/falloff oh and no cap always online module :)
results in they can hit too well from very far , with nearly battleships dps
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1623 - 2013-08-06 17:51:04 UTC
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kane Fenris
NWP
#1624 - 2013-08-06 17:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
everybody saying the vagabond is fine should make a list

one side
ships safe to engage in a vagabond and killable in a vagabond

other side
ships unsafe to engage or not killable in a vagabond

and then come here again and still telling its a ok ship to fly
stop liveing in the past (pre blaster buff pre ABC prete nerf pre cruiser balance)....

its outdated and will suffer after this change in time everbody will see it but that will like all things in eve be a long time ....

give us pg for a decent 425 wo fitting mods
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1625 - 2013-08-06 17:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Esharan
Siren's Curse
Deus Vult.
#1626 - 2013-08-06 17:58:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)



No...Vagabond is not good with new changes. Everyone will soon be flying Deimos.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1627 - 2013-08-06 18:04:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright guys, updated the OP with the Deimos changes.

Removed cap use for MWD bonus
Added Armor Repair amount bonus
Gave back a lot of base hp for armor and structure
Removed small amount of base shield hp
Improved base cap recharge to compensate some for MWD cap use bonus loss

The MWD cap use bonus earned the Deimos 4.5 cap per second, the new Deimos has a base cap recharge that is now 2.1 cap per second stronger than the old Deimos. Obviously this means the recharge is worse when MWDing than before, but the new recharge is useful when not MWDing as well. By adding armor and structure hp along with the new rep bonus, there should be plenty of support for Armor brawlers at all scales as well as the new options for shields afforded by the extra mid and rail buff.

Thanks guys - looking forward to 1.1!



Armour and rails doesn't fit on a giant chunk of gallente ships. Fix plx.
Kallie Rae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1628 - 2013-08-06 18:08:00 UTC
Hmm deimos with rep bonus that is interesting, might be cool trying to solo some with, looking forward to it!
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1629 - 2013-08-06 18:11:41 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

That is .09 which is still only greater than the same things.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1630 - 2013-08-06 18:15:17 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

That is .09 which is still only greater than the same things.


Well it tracks better than a Null blaster Talos which can do nasty things at 16km nevermind at 80km

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1631 - 2013-08-06 18:20:06 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP
Sentry drones are not OP. They performed very well in a very limited situation that the Alliance Tournament creates. The AT environment is completely unique and doesn't represent a "real" combat situation. That'd be like saying a boxing match accurately reflects a street fight.

In the "real" world, bombers utterly decimate a pile of sentries like the tournament ships dropped. Multiple logistic ships, and support ships can easily get under the range or out of the range of gardes, which is where a lot of the problem with the sentries came into play in the tournament, since the limited engagement envelope kept ships in garde optimals much of the time.

As soon as we start seeing blobby Domi fleets owning in "real" Eve, then we can start complaining that sentries are OP. But please, stop derailing this thread for a side argument about sentries that doesn't accurately reflect their current state in the game under real-world circumstances.

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1632 - 2013-08-06 18:21:30 UTC
RISE

you still need to improve armour tanking for the Deimos to be competitive with a ASB Vagabond .. especially cap usage and the ridiculous nanite reload time

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Haradgrim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1633 - 2013-08-06 18:22:47 UTC
I'll have to spend some time flying each ship to figure out if I like the changes in reality as much as I do on paper. I think that Deimos change finally puts it into a sweet spot where it has a unique role and is worth the cost over similar faction and t1 hulls.

The one ship that still feels like it needs another tweak is the Sac, it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be and I'm worried that its become a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none which should be the opposite of the goal for HACs.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1634 - 2013-08-06 18:24:36 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP
Sentry drones are not OP. They performed very well in a very limited situation that the Alliance Tournament creates. The AT environment is completely unique and doesn't represent a "real" combat situation. That'd be like saying a boxing match accurately reflects a street fight.

In the "real" world, bombers utterly decimate a pile of sentries like the tournament ships dropped. Multiple logistic ships, and support ships can easily get under the range or out of the range of gardes, which is where a lot of the problem with the sentries came into play in the tournament, since the limited engagement envelope kept ships in garde optimals much of the time.

As soon as we start seeing blobby Domi fleets owning in "real" Eve, then we can start complaining that sentries are OP. But please, stop derailing this thread for a side argument about sentries that doesn't accurately reflect their current state in the game under real-world circumstances.


Assigned sentry drones are OP, and omnis give you too much of a bonus, I think. They should probably drop omnis to 12.5% for each stat and add some scripts. Making drones a little smarter on their own would be nice if they did it at the same time as removing drone assignment. 3 omnis is lol, 80km optimal with more tracking than an electron blaster. Dead frigates and cruisers everywhere - you cannot get under them without a sig bonus or an oversized prop mod.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1635 - 2013-08-06 18:29:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
RISE

you still need to improve armour tanking for the Deimos to be competitive with a ASB Vagabond .. especially cap usage and the ridiculous nanite reload time



i highly doubt that the deimos needs further buffs....

@Rise
some people argued their asses off (inclueding me) that the new tempest needs further changes to be on one lvl with other bs.
you didn't buff it according to peoples arguments.
yet were still waiting to be proven wrong.
the tempest remains sub pair with other bs
(you can search battleclinic for a recent fit and wont find many if any fits and even those youll find are garbage
@all if you dont belive me check it i'd gladly be proven wrong and that the tempest is a good ship cause i love it)

plz Rise dont let the same thing happen to the vagabond !
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1636 - 2013-08-06 18:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP
Sentry drones are not OP. They performed very well in a very limited situation that the Alliance Tournament creates. The AT environment is completely unique and doesn't represent a "real" combat situation. That'd be like saying a boxing match accurately reflects a street fight.

In the "real" world, bombers utterly decimate a pile of sentries like the tournament ships dropped. Multiple logistic ships, and support ships can easily get under the range or out of the range of gardes, which is where a lot of the problem with the sentries came into play in the tournament, since the limited engagement envelope kept ships in garde optimals much of the time.

As soon as we start seeing blobby Domi fleets owning in "real" Eve, then we can start complaining that sentries are OP. But please, stop derailing this thread for a side argument about sentries that doesn't accurately reflect their current state in the game under real-world circumstances.


Considering Apocs can be modified to do the same thing as Gardes in terms of tracking, range and dps why do you think they still went with sentries?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1637 - 2013-08-06 18:37:58 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

That is .09 which is still only greater than the same things.


Well it tracks better than a Null blaster Talos which can do nasty things at 16km nevermind at 80km

Until you put 3 tracking computers on the Talos then they track about the same.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1638 - 2013-08-06 18:46:20 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

That is .09 which is still only greater than the same things.


Well it tracks better than a Null blaster Talos which can do nasty things at 16km nevermind at 80km

Until you put 3 tracking computers on the Talos then they track about the same.


Think of it another way at 80km they can do 750 dps ... only an scorch apoc can do the same most LR guns do sbout 450 dps maybe with many more drawbacks

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1639 - 2013-08-06 18:48:33 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did some checking, sentries on a Dominix will out track medium, artillery and Railguns and only heavy beam laser II


3 omnis on lv5 domi gets 0.9 tracking pretty much the same as barrage on 425's using garde's II at 80km plus

That is .09 which is still only greater than the same things.


Well it tracks better than a Null blaster Talos which can do nasty things at 16km nevermind at 80km

Until you put 3 tracking computers on the Talos then they track about the same.



a talos cannot get close to the range/tracking on gardes.

Stop bullshitting.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Devon Weeks
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1640 - 2013-08-06 18:51:36 UTC
Rise, good job on the Deimos. I'm looking forward to it.