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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1601 - 2013-08-06 17:12:01 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Heh, the new RLM Cerb tanks double that.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1602 - 2013-08-06 17:12:55 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1603 - 2013-08-06 17:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Xequecal wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Heh, the new RLM Cerb tanks double that.


deimos does triple the dps.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1604 - 2013-08-06 17:14:51 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
CCP Rise:

With your comment that the eagle is supposed to be a fleet boat, I see where you're going with it. I had planned that sort of role for it previously. However, to be competitive with the zealot in that role, it needs a better speed to signature ratio than it currently has. While it won't have issues projecting damage to the edge of its targeting range, it will make very little impact on HAC fleets with a signature greater than 180m (currently, dual LSE II and one shield rig push it to 210 with maximum skills). I understand that the caldari ships are generally slower, but it will remain ineffective in its intended role.

I believe that the eagle would be viable in a long range HAC fleet with the base signature radius reduced to 125m (remember it will never ACTUALLY be that low due to a shield tank) and base speed increased to at least 200 m/s. This would keep the caldari boats slower still, but able to fight an ABC fleet at most ranges effectively. It would be at a disadvantage still against AHAC fleets when both in good engagement range, but have the option to engage from farther, which I think is the point of the proposed eagle.

Otherwise, I am very excited to see the HACs being updated! While there have been a lot of arguments against the proposed changes, most of them seem to be a good benefit to them. The other changes planned to the HACs will go a long way toward their intended roles. The simple addition of lock range frees up a mid slot when intended as long range fighters. I hope to see HACs used more than they have been, in large fleets, small, and solo.

Seriously, when was the last time anybody saw a HAC flying solo? It's been a long time since I've even seen the vagabond out there.


The last time i saw one it was when i was salvaging and looting its wreck ... some nice fed gyro's...

But yes the Eagle just isn't competitive with anything at all ... Talos, Naga, Deimos can all be either good blaster or rail boats...
The eagle is still poor at being a rail-boat never-mind ... entertaining blaster kiter or brawler

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Glippo
Hello. Yes.
#1605 - 2013-08-06 17:15:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)


Wow not only is that statement... completely wrong, but given that you have made no changes to the eagle since the start lets include the whole thread in your little ratio shall we. You seem to like to count posts so you go ahead and count all eagle related posts in the last 81 pages and lets see what the ratio of bad to fine is ( only fine btw, not good but fine; your words). I predict at least 20:1 of its bad:it's fine.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1606 - 2013-08-06 17:15:58 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1607 - 2013-08-06 17:16:31 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
CCP Rise:

With your comment that the eagle is supposed to be a fleet boat, I see where you're going with it. I had planned that sort of role for it previously. However, to be competitive with the zealot in that role, it needs a better speed to signature ratio than it currently has. While it won't have issues projecting damage to the edge of its targeting range, it will make very little impact on HAC fleets with a signature greater than 180m (currently, dual LSE II and one shield rig push it to 210 with maximum skills). I understand that the caldari ships are generally slower, but it will remain ineffective in its intended role.

I believe that the eagle would be viable in a long range HAC fleet with the base signature radius reduced to 125m (remember it will never ACTUALLY be that low due to a shield tank) and base speed increased to at least 200 m/s. This would keep the caldari boats slower still, but able to fight an ABC fleet at most ranges effectively. It would be at a disadvantage still against AHAC fleets when both in good engagement range, but have the option to engage from farther, which I think is the point of the proposed eagle.

Otherwise, I am very excited to see the HACs being updated! While there have been a lot of arguments against the proposed changes, most of them seem to be a good benefit to them. The other changes planned to the HACs will go a long way toward their intended roles. The simple addition of lock range frees up a mid slot when intended as long range fighters. I hope to see HACs used more than they have been, in large fleets, small, and solo.

Seriously, when was the last time anybody saw a HAC flying solo? It's been a long time since I've even seen the vagabond out there.


The last time i saw one it was when i was salvaging and looting its wreck ... some nice fed gyro's...

But yes the Eagle just isn't competitive with anything at all ... Talos, Naga, Deimos can all be either good blaster or rail boats...
The eagle is still poor at being a rail-boat never-mind ... entertaining blaster kiter or brawler



Eagle is still terrible. But not enough people are whining to make it better. Thats why they won't look at it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1608 - 2013-08-06 17:16:53 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
What the **** is wrong with you people?

The Proposed vagabond is fantastic.. Stop being so damn awful..


No, its a fantastic brawler, (nealry) no vaga pilot wants the vaga to be a good brawler, we want a good kiter, and as a kiter the vaga still is ****.



How is being as fast as a scythe navy, having good dps and reasonable projection while having 25k ehp and over 500 dps tanked bad as a kiter?

Seriously, LSE LASB fits are really quite good on that thing.. I don't really get why people are obsessed with trying to make it a really gimpy XL asb brawler.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1609 - 2013-08-06 17:20:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)


I think the Deimos changes are better - not perfect as I'd still like the utility high, and it to do more DPS than an ENI, but at least its tank hasn't been nerfed anymore, and the bonus change is actually a useful defining bonus now - I still reckon a plate and AAR rather than medium reps will be the cookie-cut way but we'll see after testing.

I'm more concerned that it will be like another 5 years before you return to look at these ships again (after this round of balance changes) based on your current speed of balancing things. Hopefully once you're done with your 1st pass over everything you'l start doing a priority case rebalance ad-hoc?

It'd be nice to hear you'll be redressing any ship thats sub or over-par as you still go, but I guess thats just my wishful thinking.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1610 - 2013-08-06 17:23:02 UTC
RISE

So why is it the Vaga is allowed to be a super fast Attack ship along with tank bonuses and great projection with drones best resists as all minnie ships still have the 225 limit the rest have less..
but the rest of the ships can't get speed and drone buffs because they will become OP????????

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1611 - 2013-08-06 17:24:45 UTC
So. Let's say we swapped one of the optimal bonuses with a ROF bonus or a damage bonus. It cuts the Eagle range bonus sharply, but it gives it comparable or higher raw DPS to the Deimos-- but the Deimos has superior speed, agility, and a rep bonus. My thought is that the Deimos remains a superior blaster boat and better in sustained, smaller engagements, while the Eagle can actually dice with damage, and buffers better due to the resist bonus.

This conflicts with the plan to make the Deimos a fleet AHAC, but-- right now, the Eagle isn't going to end up being in -anyone's- doctrine.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1612 - 2013-08-06 17:27:41 UTC
Muninn still needs its utility high swapped for a mid.

Sac actually has enough fittings to use the utility high and gets nice range on hams now(situational but still handy in a fleet and can save you while solo). 5 meds really helps.

Deimos looks better now and Eagle is still too slow.

Cerb should get its bonuses to HML and HAMs only much like Ishtar only gets bonuses to heavy drones, I think it will just be too good vs frigs with these bonuses affecting rlmls aswell
Novah Soul
#1613 - 2013-08-06 17:29:15 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries arent op.. the assist mechanics need some work but other then that (outside of the general work all drones need), they are fine. Sentry boats crapped over everything else because of the limited ranges of the tourny arena more then anything else. Plus I suppose smartbombs weren't allowed, as I do not recall seeing any during any matches I saw.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1614 - 2013-08-06 17:29:29 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Heh, the new RLM Cerb tanks double that.


deimos does triple the dps.


I don't think the deimos does 1500 DPS. Certainly not from 100km like the Cerb.
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1615 - 2013-08-06 17:30:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)


But I didn't see anyone on that page say that the Sacrilege was good... :-P

Zealot, Ishtar, Cerb, Vaga are going to be great.

Updated Deimos should be good for solo/small gang, and who cares if it never becomes the blob ship of choice.
Munin... largely unchanged, imo. A little bit tougher, but not really that much more useful, save in the SS/anti-blackbird area, but that goes for all.
Sacrilege is fine... if you don't mind it being the oddball that is more a utility ship than a Heavy Assault ship.
The Eagle... still the lame duck of the lineup. How about a second damage bonus? or a tracking bonus? or some speed? or some drones? Can this become the Caldari equivalent to the Sac, so the poor Sac doesn't feel so much like an oddball?

Thanks!
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1616 - 2013-08-06 17:31:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I love that in the last page there has been complaint that Vaga isn't good, Vaga is too good, Eagle isn't good, Eagle is fine, Sacrilege isn't good, Rep bonus Deimos is awesome and Rep Bonuses are bad.

I think we are reaching a good place here =)

Maybe I missed it. Where did someone say the Eagle is fine? :p

Please don't change the Sac slot layout!

Re: Minmatar missile HAC? Completely impartial.... Don't like either of the Matari HACs at the moment through personal preference :p
I'd rather see the Muninn made a bit more useful.

glepp wrote:
Oh well, i guess it's true that a compromise means everyone is equally unhappy.

No pleasing some people. Based on your comment (that I've trimmed) it sounds in a good place.
You can't have a ship that does everything, the fact that it can potentially do multiple things pretty well is good. ie if you miss the small neut to deal with frigates, bring a friend? Not every ship can/should be a solopwnmobile.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1617 - 2013-08-06 17:32:41 UTC
Novah Soul wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries arent op.. the assist mechanics need some work but other then that (outside of the general work all drones need), they are fine. Sentry boats crapped over everything else because of the limited ranges of the tourny arena more then anything else. Plus I suppose smartbombs weren't allowed, as I do not recall seeing any during any matches I saw.


there were smartbombing and some teams resorted to killing the sentries as the only way of stopping the OP ness of sentries.
bottom line on sentries is
- LR BS gun range
- tracking of bs guns improvable to medium SR tracking but at 80km rather than 4km that medium blasters do... need i go on??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1618 - 2013-08-06 17:36:13 UTC
Doed wrote:
Muninn still needs its utility high swapped for a mid.

Cerb should get its bonuses to HML and HAMs only much like Ishtar only gets bonuses to heavy drones, I think it will just be too good vs frigs with these bonuses affecting rlmls aswell


I agree RML's are OP against small ships they need a rethink on how to deal with small ships i like the caracal navy issue for an anti frig role that the corax does the role nicely .. but adding missiles to TC/TC/TD would help here.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Luc Chastot
#1619 - 2013-08-06 17:36:43 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries are fine, the tracking and optimal range bonus on the Dominix is probably a bit too high. I can tell because I fly Gallente. I think lowering it to 7.5% would be enough; make them fit 1 tracking link and they will need to sacrifice some tank or dps.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1620 - 2013-08-06 17:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Harvey James wrote:
Novah Soul wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
That overbuffs the deimos, no ship should be able to easily tank 900dps before heat without links nor implants.


Rise doesn't know how to balance.

He just listens to the gallente whiners and keeps making them stronger and stronger.

Just ignore the fact that gallente dominated this alliance tourny, they need more buffs!!!


They largely dominated because of sentries being OP

Sentries arent op.. the assist mechanics need some work but other then that (outside of the general work all drones need), they are fine. Sentry boats crapped over everything else because of the limited ranges of the tourny arena more then anything else. Plus I suppose smartbombs weren't allowed, as I do not recall seeing any during any matches I saw.


there were smartbombing and some teams resorted to killing the sentries as the only way of stopping the OP ness of sentries.
bottom line on sentries is
- LR BS gun range
- tracking of bs guns improvable to medium SR tracking but at 80km rather than 4km that medium blasters do... need i go on??



Since Sentries are so good, and the best ships for the job are gallente ones.

This makes gallente ships OP.