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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1261 - 2013-08-02 06:42:20 UTC
Why are people saying the Vaga only does 200dps? It does 250 (235 with barrage) with 220mm even without gyros and it has room to do 100 drone dps. It does 350 with just 425mm in.

And before I get the whole 'applied dps vs dps fired' talk I understand that.
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#1262 - 2013-08-02 07:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: NaK'Lin
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why are people saying the Vaga only does 200dps? It does 250 (235 with barrage) with 220mm even without gyros and it has room to do 100 drone dps. It does 350 with just 425mm in.

And before I get the whole 'applied dps vs dps fired' talk I understand that.


Then why did you post? You claim having knowledge of the answer to your question.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1263 - 2013-08-02 07:15:19 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why are people saying the Vaga only does 200dps? It does 250 (235 with barrage) with 220mm even without gyros and it has room to do 100 drone dps. It does 350 with just 425mm in.

And before I get the whole 'applied dps vs dps fired' talk I understand that.



It does 200 at 25 with barrage or 150 at 25 with Fusion/PP/EMP.

Thats where the problem is.

Its raw DPS is fine for a kiting ship, that fact it applies less that half of it in an ideal situation is not.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1264 - 2013-08-02 07:15:38 UTC
Give Muninn -1 hi and +1 mid Eagle doesn't have drones nor a utility high. and Muninn is faster. it's a "sniper"

Deimos still sucks
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1265 - 2013-08-02 07:16:43 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why are people saying the Vaga only does 200dps? It does 250 (235 with barrage) with 220mm even without gyros and it has room to do 100 drone dps. It does 350 with just 425mm in.

And before I get the whole 'applied dps vs dps fired' talk I understand that.


Then why did you post? You claim having knowledge of the answer to your question.
My question is: why people are using the stats of an essentially unfitted ship when seriously arguing that the ship is worthless? Fitted and at combat range it does 250-500 dps.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1266 - 2013-08-02 07:19:23 UTC
nikar galvren wrote:

The new threads on Command Ships, Gang links & local reps confirm that CCP has abandoned this thread.

Basically EVERY time you people say this, a day or two later, a dev comes in and announces that he has read every post since his last response. Your "CCP has abandoned the thread" is getting old.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1267 - 2013-08-02 07:34:29 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why are people saying the Vaga only does 200dps? It does 250 (235 with barrage) with 220mm even without gyros and it has room to do 100 drone dps. It does 350 with just 425mm in.

And before I get the whole 'applied dps vs dps fired' talk I understand that.


Then why did you post? You claim having knowledge of the answer to your question.
My question is: why people are using the stats of an essentially unfitted ship when seriously arguing that the ship is worthless? Fitted and at combat range it does 250-500 dps.


Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1268 - 2013-08-02 07:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.


You know, lying isn't helping your case. It does 270 dps with barrage at 25km with 425mm's
240 dps at 25km with 220mm's and Barrage.

Respectively 370 and 340 dps when you factor in drones

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Randy Wray
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#1269 - 2013-08-02 07:39:17 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
You KNOW pirate ships will be bad after they touch them, right?
They'll just ignore the fact you need to crosstrain, the fact you need to gather LP in NPC nullsec while being gankfood for everyone and the fact that pirate faction ships have always been set apart entirely from the rest of the ships.


Well, I wouldn't want to comment on most of them, as I for one hope that my lovely Vindi doesn't get touched at all, but as far as angel ships go, there were mentions of possibly changing falloff to tracking. They would retain their speed and agility, they just wouldn't have the range anymore. That definitely makes them weaker, but not bad.

Tracking bonus on machariel, that would be something would'nt it. If this is true I think they're making angel ships even less interesting than they already are. Why would you use a mach if it had a dam tracking bonus?

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1270 - 2013-08-02 07:44:31 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.


You know, lying isn't helping your case. It does 270 dps with barrage at 25km with 425mm's
240 dps at 25km with 220mm's and Barrage.

Respectively 370 and 340 dps when you factor in drones


Apologies, I was phonepoasting on my way to work, doing the numbers by memory.

Quite right, it applies 240 DPS at 25, in ideal circumstances mind you, but yes, quite right.

So by locking yourself into Explosive/Kin damage and having relatively poor tracking you get a whole 240 DPS at point range.

This is still awful.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1271 - 2013-08-02 07:49:17 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.


You know, lying isn't helping your case. It does 270 dps with barrage at 25km with 425mm's
240 dps at 25km with 220mm's and Barrage.

Respectively 370 and 340 dps when you factor in drones


Apologies, I was phonepoasting on my way to work, doing the numbers by memory.

Quite right, it applies 240 DPS at 25, in ideal circumstances mind you, but yes, quite right.

So by locking yourself into Explosive/Kin damage and having relatively poor tracking you get a whole 240 DPS at point range.

This is still awful.

stop qqing about the best hac atm
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1272 - 2013-08-02 07:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Apologies, I was phonepoasting on my way to work, doing the numbers by memory.

Quite right, it applies 240 DPS at 25, in ideal circumstances mind you, but yes, quite right.

So by locking yourself into Explosive/Kin damage and having relatively poor tracking you get a whole 240 DPS at point range.

This is still awful.

No problem then.

You need to grasp the idea of consequences of choice. Gallente is locked to thermal/kinetic, Ammar to EM/thermal, Caldari partially to kinetic through bonuses and Minmatar has a free choice of every type, but some of it will go in kinetic.

You can get higher dps at longer range with Barrage, at a cost, of course. And its 340 dps with drones, you can't leave out different elements just to further your case.

340 dps at point range with enough speed to gtfo if you have to or never get touched by anything slower is extremely powerful.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1273 - 2013-08-02 07:55:21 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.


You know, lying isn't helping your case. It does 270 dps with barrage at 25km with 425mm's
240 dps at 25km with 220mm's and Barrage.

Respectively 370 and 340 dps when you factor in drones


Apologies, I was phonepoasting on my way to work, doing the numbers by memory.

Quite right, it applies 240 DPS at 25, in ideal circumstances mind you, but yes, quite right.

So by locking yourself into Explosive/Kin damage and having relatively poor tracking you get a whole 240 DPS at point range.

This is still awful.

stop qqing about the best hac atm


Theres the key phrase though.

"At the moment"

The best T1 frigate was the Rifter, they said "its fine, we'll buff everything else up to its level".

It is now the worst T1 frigate by a fair margin, the exact same is about to happen to the Vaga.

And no I'm not QQing I'm making case, something you are obviously incapable of.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1274 - 2013-08-02 07:58:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Please read my previous response, it does 150-200DPS at 25 depending on ammo loaded.

Thats awful, even more so when you consider it has the worst EHP of any of the HACs.

If it has no gyros or TE, sure, but no one honestly fights with that. If you go quad gun lows you can do 270 at that range without drones(370 with), and that's with the second biggest gun size. The Vaga also has the highest active tanking and can recover the deference in buffer in about 30 seconds, while simply avoiding most of the incoming damage.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1275 - 2013-08-02 08:04:15 UTC
I actually give up on the people in this thread.

Heres the bottom line.

Every other HAC will dumpster the Vaga post patch, every ABC will dumpster the Vaga post patch, it will still be nothing more than a Mediocre anti-frig ship and there will be no other reason to fly it post patch.

Its a poorly thought out change in its current incarnation and will serve no real role.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1276 - 2013-08-02 08:08:23 UTC
Just because you say that does not make it true. The Vaga will massively stomp a lot of the other HAC's and most ABC if flown correctly.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1277 - 2013-08-02 08:13:40 UTC
A Vaga kiting a Talos at 15km will do more than twice the dps of the Talos. You will be hit with about 150 dps when orbiting and will deal about 370 dps.

If we compare that to the old Vagabond that has no mwd sig reduction... hold on.. The old Vaga would have to tank about 400 dps at that range.

New Vaga takes 150 dps
Old Vaga takes 400 dps.

So please. Tell me ALL about how bad the role bonus is.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1278 - 2013-08-02 08:38:24 UTC
The only HACs that can do what the Vaga does are the Deimos(t), that people won't fly for a list of reasons, and the zealot, which is mostly too slow for it and is more for brute fleet dps anyway. ABCs are a whole other issue but the vaga is just about perfect for killing them. And remember, if the vaga closes the gap the ABC can't even hit it.
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1279 - 2013-08-02 08:45:29 UTC
The bad thing CCP and people thinK of how to improve the Vaga (and all other ships) based on the specific fitting that they use.
This is of course wrong.

There are people that fly the Vaga without 2nd shield extender and people who fly it without any at all. The extra high slots can be used in various ways apart from neuts which is interesting...... we dont want pre-fitted ships.

The bonus now boosts a specific fitting (which fitting works fine even without any skill boosting) and doesnt have any impact for the most people or any larger than 'solo/very small scale'

So for most of the cases there is no actual boosting.... which is the case here.


A little more damage or range would help boosting it while keeping the low EHP and thus relying on its speed to survive.
For example a slightly +30DPS with an additional 2km of falloff would make things better without having any huge effect on the general balance of the HACS or make it op in any way.

Slots are quite fine as is in order not to give a huge boost.


PS. I think it needs a further +5 speed to be exactly in line with old speed bonus.
Goody Twoshoes Virpio
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1280 - 2013-08-02 09:33:45 UTC
There seems to be an error. The ishtar has lost a fitting slot whereas no other ship has. This is disappointing for me since I use it as a brawler and use the current 2 utilty highs for small NOS.

This is necessary because it's unable to maintain a 2-MAR tank with just 1 medium cap booster (none of the gallente ships are).

Every other race of ships have utility slots and invariably carry neuts. As a result, an active armour tank is now unviable in the ishtar.

May we have our high slow back please? or perhaps better still, replace it with a mid slot?