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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1161 - 2013-08-01 12:04:45 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Lol you are joking right?

Resists without buffer to back them up are worthless. Tell me how you are going to fit any buffer to your vaga with that precious 10 powergrid remaining?


Why don't you post a fit of this vagabond you are referring to because frankly I don't think it exists. :P

Tell me why you are trying to shoehorn the biggest guns onto the Vaga when it clearly is not meant to be fit with 720mm's.
With the insane speed you get on this ship I don't feel it would be appropriate to give it even more PG. It does just fine with 425mm's with Barrage.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1162 - 2013-08-01 12:04:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:


Mid-tier guns, class-appropriate tank, no oversized modules, and you're still over on grid without a PG implant.


Unless I've gone mad, I could have sworn cruisers were medium size modules, so you are actually over-sizing two modules there. Simply because it has become 'standard' doesn't make them not oversized.


Not really. Medium armor repppers and Large shield boosters have generally the same fitting requirements. So they are the same to fit, the name doesn't matter its the stats.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1163 - 2013-08-01 12:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Fewell
Diesel47 wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:

While fitting issue here is obvious there's a role for that ship as well. Vagabond is going to be more or less close range brawler while Muninn will remain as a sniping platform. Cynabal is combination of those two since there are no other Angel ships of that class. I think it is fair enough.


Personally, I haven't really been seeing these "roles" that CCP and everybody keeps going on about.



Active shield tank bonus already defines ship as a brawler and not a sniper.


Then what does the falloff bonus define?

It defines one of two falloff bonuses you'd want if you wanted this ship to be a skirmisher. You have to load barrage to do any damage at point range in a Vaga, and then you're only doing about 200 dps while giving up the selectable damage which is the main plus of projectile weapons. Considering most other cruisers have been buffed in speed, as well as damage projection which can exceed that of the Vaga, your engagement profile isn't very large. It's frigates. Vagabonds kill frigates. Rise talks about how often they're used and how much damage they put out in pvp daily, can he tell us on what hull size this damage lands? It's frigates.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1164 - 2013-08-01 12:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Just to further illustrate the vaga's PG issues, this doesn't fit:

*FITTING*

Mid-tier guns, class-appropriate tank, no oversized modules, and you're still over on grid without a PG implant.

By "class appropriate", you mean 40k buffer with a 770 dps burst tank and a medium neut to spare?

Show me which other hacs can do that please.


Uh, try the new Cerberus:

3x BCS II
Reactor Control Unit II

Experimental 10MN MWD
XLASB
Invuln II
Domination EM Ward Amplifier
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

6x HAML II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Ok, it doesn't have a neut, but it does over double the DPS at a greater range with a much better tank. It does require maxed fitting skills, including launcher rigging V and AWU V (1265/1265 PG exactly) but no blinging other than the 25m faction ward amplifier. If you want to use Genolution augs and a 4% CPU implant you can drop the overclocking unit for an explosion radius rig to help your DPS even more.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1165 - 2013-08-01 12:11:27 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

That vaga has 25k EHP with a 605 dps heated burst tank. The only way you're getting 40k EHP out of a vaga with a prop mod and a point is if you're running dual LSEs and dual T2 CDFEs, in which case you don't have any burst tank so I'm not at all sure where you're coming from here unless you're factoring in gang bonuses.

Yup, I missread my eft, sorry. Dont know how that happened :s

I still think the Vaga is very much fine with these changes.

[NEW Vagabond, test]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Salvager II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I

Hobgoblin II x5


This is what I'll be running most likely.

Horrible EHP (14k), but can mitigate a ton of dps by ways of speed and TD.
Can tank most missile cruisers for long enough to win or get out of the fight

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1166 - 2013-08-01 12:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
The vagabond is just a mess of a ship.

All it did before was kill the weakest of targets (frigs) and then run away. Now it will do the same, but instead it has a worthless active tanking bonus aswell.


Edit: To the fit above: The cerberus will tear that ship a new one. So will any aBCs.

Running away from every single fight isn't a role.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1167 - 2013-08-01 12:14:58 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
I don't really fly Vagas, but the above fit seems like it's trying to be too much. If it's kiting, why neut? Why booster? Go straight buffer. You're supposed to be range/speed tanking a lot anyway, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I've never trained this ship. I'm just going off my understanding of other ships.

You fit a medium neut because frigs can catch you, and if you're caught for long you're dead. If the utility high were switched to a mid you wouldn't have much more choice in mids than you do now because you'd be sticking a web in there, though that would at least free up a good chunk of pg.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1168 - 2013-08-01 12:19:07 UTC
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1169 - 2013-08-01 12:22:09 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.


Why would I? I can fly a navy omen or a cynabal and get better speed than a vagabond and better DPS.

And the munnin needs to become a missile boat already.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1170 - 2013-08-01 12:24:26 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.


Why would I? I can fly a navy omen or a cynabal and get better speed than a vagabond and better DPS.

And the munnin needs to become a missile boat already.

The navy Omen is far slower than the Vagabond (like very far) ; and the Cynabal is in sight of a hugh nerfbat.

Rejoice. :-)
Oh My Boobs
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1171 - 2013-08-01 12:26:30 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.


Why would I? I can fly a navy omen or a cynabal and get better speed than a vagabond and better DPS.

And the munnin needs to become a missile boat already.

The navy Omen is far slower than the Vagabond (like very far) ; and the Cynabal is in sight of a hugh nerfbat.

Rejoice. :-)

In b4 huge nerf making the cynabal as useless as the dramiel is.

They're ruining everything, except T1 wtf.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1172 - 2013-08-01 12:26:44 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.


Why would I? I can fly a navy omen or a cynabal and get better speed than a vagabond and better DPS.

And the munnin needs to become a missile boat already.

The navy Omen is far slower than the Vagabond (like very far) ; and the Cynabal is in sight of a hugh nerfbat.

Rejoice. :-)


Nope, the navy omen with one nanofiber is faster than a vaga with none.

Only a moron would fit a nanofiber to a vagabond.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1173 - 2013-08-01 12:29:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.

I use sacrilege with 2 medium armor repairers because of 25% cap recharge bonus.
This makes sacrilege active tank very good, if you're removing this bonus i'll not be able to run 2 medium armor reps anymore and it will be useless.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1174 - 2013-08-01 12:30:11 UTC
Spc One wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.

I use sacrilege with 2 medium armor repairers because of 25% cap recharge bonus.
This makes sacrilege active tank very good, if you're removing this bonus i'll not be able to run 2 medium armor reps anymore and it will be useless.


You are wrong.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#1175 - 2013-08-01 12:31:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

No one's "despising on speed" or discounting its value, but speed alone isn't enough to make a ship good any more than tank alone was enough to make the old prophecy or maller worth flying. In particular, speed can't make up for glaring deficiencies in other respects, as demonstrated by the initial Odyssey stabber - it was certainly fast, but going fast was the only thing it could do at all well and so it saw very little use.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1176 - 2013-08-01 12:32:12 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Nope, the navy omen with one nanofiber is faster than a vaga with none.

Only a moron would fit a nanofiber to a vagabond.

I guess you're not a moron enough to fly minmatar ships then. :D
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1177 - 2013-08-01 12:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I guess you're not a moron enough to fly minmatar ships then. :D


Are you suggesting that you or anybody else fits nanofibers to their vagabonds?

Tsubutai wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

No one's "despising on speed" or discounting its value, but speed alone isn't enough to make a ship good any more than tank alone was enough to make the old prophecy or maller worth flying. In particular, speed can't make up for glaring deficiencies in other respects, as demonstrated by the initial Odyssey stabber - it was certainly fast, but going fast was the only thing it could do at all well and so it saw very little use.


So true.


If speed mattered so much the dramiel would be the king of all frigates.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1178 - 2013-08-01 12:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

I guess CCP should sell skins to apply on ship so someone could fly a Muninn with the skin of a Vagabond, or a Talos with the skin of a Deimos.


We dont despise speed, but Ventures go fast that doesnt make them good PVP ships.

Being fast isnt enough, the fast skirmishing play style which a low EHP HAC like the Vaga has requires to kill the target relatively quickly so it can escape before its limited buffer has run down.

Just being fast is a useless attribute if it doesn't have the ability to kill something quickly then make use of that speed.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1179 - 2013-08-01 12:34:41 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Nope, the navy omen with one nanofiber is faster than a vaga with none.

Only a moron would fit a nanofiber to a vagabond.

Well if you say so it MUST be true.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1180 - 2013-08-01 12:35:32 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand those Vagabond pilots despising on speed...

If you don't care about speed, why don't use another ship than the Vagabond ? You know, the Muninn can fit artilleries fine.

No one's "despising on speed" or discounting its value, but speed alone isn't enough to make a ship good any more than tank alone was enough to make the old prophecy or maller worth flying. In particular, speed can't make up for glaring deficiencies in other respects, as demonstrated by the initial Odyssey stabber - it was certainly fast, but going fast was the only thing it could do at all well and so it saw very little use.

Now that become interesting. The core problem here is that speed supremacy give so much of an advantage to a ship that it can become absurdly OP very fast if you add only a little too much of something. See angel ship for an exemple.