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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#1121 - 2013-08-01 09:27:11 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
ever tried to fit a vaga? 425mm +med neut +mwd and you're at 98.99% pg

you're an idiot.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1122 - 2013-08-01 09:39:41 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
[quote=Kane Fenris]
oh really?
ever tried to fit a vaga ?
425mm +med neut +mwd and your at 98.99% pg (tech2)

and i'm only asking for the 425's cause its the only way i see that ccp could/would fix its dmg projection prolem a little.

.....
85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Paired with some Basis, Huginns and Lachesis I can see this being a pretty effective LR Tier 3 counter.



Your fit and idea are OK. Don't get me wrong, but are just not gonna work and here is why:

1. Speed
Naga: 1380 m/s
Tornado: 1700 m/s
Talos: 1600 m/s
Oracle: 1500 m/s

Eagle: 1300 m/s

2. Alfa Volley:
Tornado: 5k - 10 k
Oracle ~ 5k
Naga ~ 4k
Talos ~ 4k

Eagle ~ 1500

So unless you plan to outnumber your enemy 2:1 odds does not favour you.
And then there is the minor issue with the price... :D


please compare the comparable , you are comparing 5 medium guns vs 8 large guns. Of course are the large guns get more alpha!

compare the overall dps instead!

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1123 - 2013-08-01 09:41:26 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
ever tried to fit a vaga? 425mm +med neut +mwd and you're at 98.99% pg

You're an idiot.


You're an idiot. Capitals, my friend. Capitals.
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#1124 - 2013-08-01 09:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyaron wars
I will continue my post and put some math here.
While people here post ship fittings etc. I will just stick to base stats of every ship since fitting can vary. In my understanding and knowledge ships were different based on following formula:
T2 =< Pirate faction but > Navy faction > T1

Let's go ship by ship vs it's T1 and Navy faction brothers excluding pirate factions since it's a different storry(Shield/Armor/Hull):

Gallente:

Vexor = 1100/2000/2000
Navy Vexor = 1650/3000/3000
Ishtar = 1400/1600/2300

Thorax = 1200/1600/1600
Deimos = 1350/1750/2000 (it has slightly more then thorax \o/)

Minmatar:
Stabber= 1600/1300/1300
Stabber Fleet Issue = 2400/1950/1950
Vagabond = 1750/1400/980

Rupture = 1500/1800/1500
Muninn = 1580/2000/1400

Amarr:
Omen = 1200/1700/1500
Omen Navy Issue = 1800/2550/2250
Zealot = 980/2250/1670

Maller = 1600/3100/2800
Sacrilege = 1200/2100/1690

Caldari:
Caracal = 1700/1200/1400
Caracal Navy Issue = 3000/1950/2250
Cerberus = 2000/1200/1400

Moa = 2300/1000/1600
Eagle = 2500/1250/1550


Now if we will put more or less standard fits for every ship class and add ISK vs Ship capabilities we will see that even after buff HACs are way too expensive and require long time to train for basically not so significant difference.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1125 - 2013-08-01 10:01:03 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:

Now if we will put more or less standard fits for every ship class and add ISK vs Ship capabilities we will see that even after buff HACs are way too expensive and require long time to train for basically not so significant difference.



so basically HAC'S are the apple equivalent for #spaceshiphipters
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1126 - 2013-08-01 10:07:34 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:

Now if we will put more or less standard fits for every ship class and add ISK vs Ship capabilities we will see that even after buff HACs are way too expensive and require long time to train for basically not so significant difference.



so basically HAC'S are the apple equivalent for #spaceshiphipters


Some will be worth the Isk post buff, some will not at this rate.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#1127 - 2013-08-01 10:49:05 UTC
I'm not entirely convinced on the Deimos losing its utility highslot, but the other changes look great, +1

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1128 - 2013-08-01 10:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Vagabad needs PWG buff.

I want to use arties/425mm on it.

The Deimos needs 13.000 pwg and 800 CPU. I want to use Large guns and double XL ASB.


Post constructively or don't post, we're trying to make the Vaga a useful ship that can actually use its shield booster bonus without having to fit an ACR.

He was underlining a bit sarcasticaly that asking for your ship to be able to fit everything you can possibly need is unreasonable. You are asking too much sir, and it's not christmas yet.

Because if you think about it, the Vagabond can fit guns and ASB to profit from all of its bonus. You're only asking more without real reasons.



How is asking to fit medium arties on a 150mil tech 2 cruiser unreasonable? Are you daft?

Right now, on a vagabond.. You cannot fit a full rack of 720mms without running out of PWG. That is with nothing else on the ship.


Why can an oracle fit 8 tech2 Tachyons with no problem, or a Talos a full rack of 425mm railguns while a vaga... a supposed "specialized" ship, a supposed "heavy attack cruiser" can't even fit 425mm autocannons with a standard buffer tank? Yet alone arties, at all?
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#1129 - 2013-08-01 10:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyaron wars
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Vagabad needs PWG buff.

I want to use arties/425mm on it.

The Deimos needs 13.000 pwg and 800 CPU. I want to use Large guns and double XL ASB.


Post constructively or don't post, we're trying to make the Vaga a useful ship that can actually use its shield booster bonus without having to fit an ACR.

He was underlining a bit sarcasticaly that asking for your ship to be able to fit everything you can possibly need is unreasonable. You are asking too much sir, and it's not christmas yet.

Because if you think about it, the Vagabond can fit guns and ASB to profit from all of its bonus. You're only asking more without real reasons.



How is asking to fit medium arties on a 150mil tech 2 cruiser unreasonable? Are you daft?

Right now, on a vagabond.. You cannot fit a full rack of 720mms without running out of PWG. That is with nothing else on the ship.

The cynabal has no such problem. Is the cynabal OP for being able to use it's own weapon system? No, the vagabond is weak.



While fitting issue here is obvious there's a role for that ship as well. Vagabond is going to be more or less close range brawler while Muninn will remain as a sniping platform. Cynabal is combination of those two since there are no other Angel ships of that class. I think it is fair enough. But even as an active tanked platform it will have hard times engaging something if should kill. P. much every target that vagabond must kill will break through cycles of it shield boosts and eventually will kill it no matter how well it tanks.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1130 - 2013-08-01 10:57:10 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:

While fitting issue here is obvious there's a role for that ship as well. Vagabond is going to be more or less close range brawler while Muninn will remain as a sniping platform. Cynabal is combination of those two since there are no other Angel ships of that class. I think it is fair enough.


Personally, I haven't really been seeing these "roles" that CCP and everybody keeps going on about.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1131 - 2013-08-01 10:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Vagabad needs PWG buff.

I want to use arties/425mm on it.

The Deimos needs 13.000 pwg and 800 CPU. I want to use Large guns and double XL ASB.


Post constructively or don't post, we're trying to make the Vaga a useful ship that can actually use its shield booster bonus without having to fit an ACR.

He was underlining a bit sarcasticaly that asking for your ship to be able to fit everything you can possibly need is unreasonable. You are asking too much sir, and it's not christmas yet.

Because if you think about it, the Vagabond can fit guns and ASB to profit from all of its bonus. You're only asking more without real reasons.



How is asking to fit medium arties on a 150mil tech 2 cruiser unreasonable? Are you daft?

Right now, on a vagabond.. You cannot fit a full rack of 720mms without running out of PWG. That is with nothing else on the ship.

The cynabal has no such problem. Is the cynabal OP for being able to use it's own weapon system? No, the vagabond is weak.


you're not supposed to be able to LR medium weapons without any fitting mods, let alone the biggest LR guns!

look at the lazor line for jamyl's sake! most of the time you cant even fit the top tier SR guns without at least one or 2 PG rigs!

The only weapons systems where LR weaponry is easier to fit are the HMLs compared to HAMs

would it really kill you to have to fit one ACR to fit arties?

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#1132 - 2013-08-01 10:59:21 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
Now if we will put more or less standard fits for every ship class and add ISK vs Ship capabilities we will see that even after buff HACs are way too expensive and require long time to train for basically not so significant difference.


Ships are supposed to be exponentially expensive for a linear increase in power / utility. This allows basic T1 to remain competitive options for those that can't or won't spend the ISK for a slight increase in usefulness
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#1133 - 2013-08-01 10:59:33 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:

While fitting issue here is obvious there's a role for that ship as well. Vagabond is going to be more or less close range brawler while Muninn will remain as a sniping platform. Cynabal is combination of those two since there are no other Angel ships of that class. I think it is fair enough.


Personally, I haven't really been seeing these "roles" that CCP and everybody keeps going on about.



Active shield tank bonus already defines ship as a brawler and not a sniper.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1134 - 2013-08-01 11:00:01 UTC
sten mattson wrote:

you're not supposed to be able to LR medium weapons without any fitting mods, let alone the biggest LR guns!

look at the lazor line for jamyl's sake! most of the time you cant even fit the top tier SR guns without at least one or 2 PG rigs!

The only weapons systems where LR weaponry is easier to fit are the HMLs compared to HAMs


So we fit ACs, and do 200 DPS at point range if you are lucky.

Again, remind what the **** the point of the Vaga is again.
Oh My Boobs
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1135 - 2013-08-01 11:05:16 UTC
meh, im even less convinced than with the first review.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1136 - 2013-08-01 11:07:07 UTC
sten mattson wrote:


you're not supposed to be able to LR medium weapons without any fitting mods, let alone the biggest LR guns!

look at the lazor line for jamyl's sake! most of the time you cant even fit the top tier SR guns without at least one or 2 PG rigs!

The only weapons systems where LR weaponry is easier to fit are the HMLs compared to HAMs

would it really kill you to have to fit one ACR to fit arties?


Oh yeah?

On the vaga a measly full rack of 720mms and one ACR gives you 60 extra PWG to work with. That is 110 short of a microwarp drive.

My stabber fleet issue can fit 720mms no problem. So can my rupture.

A thorax can fit 250mm railguns without a fitting mod. A Harbinger can fit a full rack of heavy beam laser IIs aswell. The list keeps going on.

The facts don't support your statements, sorry.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#1137 - 2013-08-01 11:07:23 UTC
sten mattson wrote:

you're not supposed to be able to LR medium weapons without any fitting mods, let alone the biggest LR guns!

look at the lazor line for jamyl's sake! most of the time you cant even fit the top tier SR guns without at least one or 2 PG rigs!

The only weapons systems where LR weaponry is easier to fit are the HMLs compared to HAMs

would it really kill you to have to fit one ACR to fit arties?


Assuming a max-skilled pilot, a zealot with a full rack of HBL IIs and an MWD has 209 PG to spare.
An eagle with a full rack of 250mm rails and an MWD has 151.5 PG to spare.
A deimos with a full rack of 250mm rails and an MWD has 226.5 PG to spare.
A vaga with a full rack of 720s is over on grid even before you fit an MWD. With 650s and an MWD, it has 27.75 PG to spare.

I'm not saying I want to fly an artillery vaga, but it clearly is pretty short on PG compared to all of the other HACs.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1138 - 2013-08-01 11:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Cyaron wars wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:

While fitting issue here is obvious there's a role for that ship as well. Vagabond is going to be more or less close range brawler while Muninn will remain as a sniping platform. Cynabal is combination of those two since there are no other Angel ships of that class. I think it is fair enough.


Personally, I haven't really been seeing these "roles" that CCP and everybody keeps going on about.



Active shield tank bonus already defines ship as a brawler and not a sniper.


Then what does the falloff bonus define?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1139 - 2013-08-01 11:09:53 UTC
How about the role just being a good combat ship? Fact: They are better than their Tech 1 variants in virtually every aspect except speed.

Or is combat not a role to you?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Oh My Boobs
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1140 - 2013-08-01 11:11:10 UTC
Muninn -> Was not very used, why would it be more now. less meds than T1 counter part, tyty
Vagabond -> shield boost bonus with 4 meds, uh?
Ishtar -> 3 perma bonus only? tyty