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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Kane Fenris
NWP
#1101 - 2013-08-01 06:30:20 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Vagabad needs PWG buff.

I want to use arties/425mm on it.

The Deimos needs 13.000 pwg and 800 CPU. I want to use Large guns and double XL ASB.


Post constructively or don't post, we're trying to make the Vaga a useful ship that can actually use its shield booster bonus without having to fit an ACR.

He was underlining a bit sarcasticaly that asking for your ship to be able to fit everything you can possibly need is unreasonable. You are asking too much sir, and it's not christmas yet.

Because if you think about it, the Vagabond can fit guns and ASB to profit from all of its bonus. You're only asking more without real reasons.


oh really?
ever tried to fit a vaga ?
425mm +med neut +mwd and your at 98.99% pg (tech2)

and i'm only asking for the 425's cause its the only way i see that ccp could/would fix its dmg projection prolem a little.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1102 - 2013-08-01 06:37:46 UTC
I think my favorite line ever is a dev saying he doesn't believe cruisers should fit all cruiser sized modules as a design element.

My jaw literally dropped.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1103 - 2013-08-01 06:44:35 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I think my favorite line ever is a dev saying he doesn't believe cruisers should fit all cruiser sized modules as a design element.

My jaw literally dropped.


even if you drop the med neut to a small your still tight on grid....
if thats your meaning....
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1104 - 2013-08-01 06:53:49 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I think my favorite line ever is a dev saying he doesn't believe cruisers should fit all cruiser sized modules as a design element.

My jaw literally dropped.


Try fitting a full rack of Tachyon Beams on an Apocalypse. Just because something is ment to be fitted on a certain type of hulls it doesn't mean that all hulls will support it.
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1105 - 2013-08-01 06:57:24 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I think my favorite line ever is a dev saying he doesn't believe cruisers should fit all cruiser sized modules as a design element.

My jaw literally dropped.


My god...i hope he's not employed any longer. That's utterly ridiculous.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1106 - 2013-08-01 07:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Kane Fenris wrote:

oh really?
ever tried to fit a vaga ?
425mm +med neut +mwd and your at 98.99% pg (tech2)

and i'm only asking for the 425's cause its the only way i see that ccp could/would fix its dmg projection prolem a little.

Tell me all about all the other ships that can put largest guns, mwd and neut and not have pg issues..

Oh right, none of them can that. So why should the vaga?

Edit: not counting pirate cruisers. They are not yet rebalanced.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1107 - 2013-08-01 07:23:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
CERBERUS

...

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+15) / 15(+15)


While it's nice to finally see a Caldari HAC get drones why did you choose the cerberus over the eagle? It's not a complaint that they're getting a damage/utility augment, but with missiles already being a "travel time" weapon system it seems an odd choice compared to the eagle.

CCP Rise wrote:
DEIMOS

We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.


Again, thank you very much. Having a cap penalty reduction bonus is, to me at least, one of the more iconic aspects of the ship, and while having it removed might make fitting afterburners on them more appealing it would also lose something that helps separate it from the other HACs.

That and it's nice to fit a deadspace MWD with HAC5 and get a nice (up to) 22% bonus to your capacitor amount. Big smile

CCP Rise wrote:
ISHTAR

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)


Thank you for the fitting capacity boost, especially the CPU, and making HAC a skill worth prioritizing over other skills for an ishtar pilot. The control range bonus was nice, but as I pointed out in the old topic neither it nor the bay bonus really screamed out "train me."

I sincerely hope that whoever takes over the rebalancing for the ishkur and eos take a page from the ishtar and have their drone bay bonuses replaced with something more useful that would actually force players like myself to prioritize the respective ship handling skill instead of leaving it for last.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1108 - 2013-08-01 07:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:

oh really?
ever tried to fit a vaga ?
425mm +med neut +mwd and your at 98.99% pg (tech2)

and i'm only asking for the 425's cause its the only way i see that ccp could/would fix its dmg projection prolem a little.

Tell me all about all the other ships that can put largest guns, mwd and neut and not have pg issues..

Oh right, none of them can that. So why should the vaga?

Edit: not counting pirate cruisers. They are not yet rebalanced.



That would be a fair point if the other Cruisers didnt have other Redeeming qualities like better tank/DPS/projection, buts its OK guys because the Vaga goes fast, you wont be able to kill anything, but you can go fast.

Edit; Was actually looking at the Eagle, while its not a particularly good solo platform its actually not too bad as a rail platform.

[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Paired with some Basis, Huginns and Lachesis I can see this being a pretty effective LR Tier 3 counter.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#1109 - 2013-08-01 08:09:39 UTC
yes. Yes. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. YES.

Thanks for explaining the Vagabond changes, Rise. you rock.

The capacitor, sensor and targeting range buffs will make it and the other HACs more powerful in a way that might just fit them, so that is a welcomed buff no doubt.

Now, you just need to rebalance Assault Frigates to fit the new HACs (i.e. Shield Boost bonus for Jaguar) and you're good to go.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#1110 - 2013-08-01 08:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Lizardov
Last Try, after that I give up... I personally do not see how the current changes will make me want to use hac ships again.

@ CCP

1. Why EAGLE does not have second dmg bonus like all other HACs?
If changing bonus does not fall into the category "minor twiks", then maybe add another low slot !?

2. Why Gellente does not have Tank bonus?
All other races have one

3. Why Zealot and EAGLE are the only HACs vulnerable to frigate size ships?
Both Zealot nad EAGLE have no Drones, both have no utility high slots also.
The Munin has drones and 6H / 5 Turrets
The Deimost has drones / The Ishtar has all the drones in eve and only utility Highs...

4. Why Gallente does not fallow the logic of all other races?
1x Heavy tanker / brawler + 1x Long Range bonus to optimal or fall-off or flight time and speed
Ishtar or Deimost witch one is the brawler for Gallente?
Deimost has falloff bonus, looks to be the long range one... but then Ishtar with the Sentries can hit over 100 km...

5. Why don't you put a restriction on the Ishtar: no Sentries?
Like you did on the Mother-ships they have all the drone space and bandwidth on the world and they can only use fighter bombers ...
That might help us define Brawler / LR in the Gallente race...


Quote:
Lets start with role. We've had several presentations and posts and dev blogs now which explain that tech 1 is general and tech 2 is specialized...


Please give us some more information, how T2 is specialized and it what exactly?
I personally have hard time finding clear roles, they overlap so much. What is a true for 3 of the races is not for the 4th etc...
gawrshmapooo
J33 Monocombine
#1111 - 2013-08-01 08:33:37 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
Just one thing I've just noticed, the laser-ship (Zealot) has less capacitor than the missile ship (sacrilege)... Are you sure the capacitor values aren't backwards?



The Sacrilege needs all the cap it can get for its dual rep tank. Cap isn't just for lasers.

I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1112 - 2013-08-01 08:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
4. Why Gallente does not fallow the logic of all other races?
1x Heavy tanker / brawler + 1x Long Range bonus to optimal or fall-off or flight time and speed
Ishtar or Deimost witch one is the brawler for Gallente?
Deimost has falloff bonus, looks to be the long range one... but then Ishtar with the Sentries can hit over 100 km...


I think you nailed it, here. It almost feels as though the brawler role is being eliminated entirely from all tech 2 Gallente and assigned solely to the Proteus. Reducing the tank certainly gives the impression they don't intend for you to stay in brawling range very long, and the falloff bonus certainly benefits a rail fit more than blaster.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#1113 - 2013-08-01 08:51:15 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
[quote=Kane Fenris]
oh really?
ever tried to fit a vaga ?
425mm +med neut +mwd and your at 98.99% pg (tech2)

and i'm only asking for the 425's cause its the only way i see that ccp could/would fix its dmg projection prolem a little.

.....
85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Paired with some Basis, Huginns and Lachesis I can see this being a pretty effective LR Tier 3 counter.



Your fit and idea are OK. Don't get me wrong, but are just not gonna work and here is why:

1. Speed
Naga: 1380 m/s
Tornado: 1700 m/s
Talos: 1600 m/s
Oracle: 1500 m/s

Eagle: 1300 m/s

2. Alfa Volley:
Tornado: 5k - 10 k
Oracle ~ 5k
Naga ~ 4k
Talos ~ 4k

Eagle ~ 1500

So unless you plan to outnumber your enemy 2:1 odds does not favour you.
And then there is the minor issue with the price... :D
Xoduse
Cryogenic Consultancy
Azure Citizen
#1114 - 2013-08-01 08:55:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
DEIMOS


For the Deimos we are bumping the speed up some more, lowering the Signature Radius slightly and of course adding the electronics and cap changes. We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage


I can think of a bonus much more useful than the MWD one. How about letting the deimos retain the 7.5% tracking bonus the thorax has so it can better apply all that wonderful dps. Then give total cap a little buff but not quite as much as the old MWD bonus did.

The total cap loss won't be as noticeable with the help of ancillary armor reps, and the cap buff you are implementing already. With the current proposed deimos tweaks I feel it will have a hard time competing with other HACs (Hello Cerberus) 4th mid slot or not.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1115 - 2013-08-01 08:55:53 UTC
[NEW Deimos, Deimos cant brawl??]
Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5

531 dps

714 dps tank omni. 2039 peak tank, 663 worst case.

1925 m/s

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1116 - 2013-08-01 08:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
You haven't taken into account the Eagles lower sig far better EHP and far better Resists.

The predominant Tier 3 snipers at the moment are the Nado or the Naga, the Nado will be fairly effective vs the Eagle although it will have worse tracking and tank than the Naga, however the Eagle has almost 130K EHP vs Kinetic/Thermal damage, 3x the EHP of a Naga.

The key would be in clearing Huginns from the field or getting a good warpin and starting the fight at close range, if you forced the fight to start on 0 you could catch enough Huginns and kill them to make the remainder of the fight easy mode.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#1117 - 2013-08-01 09:05:31 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:

[NEW Deimos, Deimos cant brawl??]
......
531 dps

714 dps tank omni. 2039 peak tank, 663 worst case.

1925 m/s


There is nothing new in the fit you posted...
But check out what is new :
Quote:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1350(+190) / 1750(-290) / 2000(-531)


No one will tell you that you can not brawl with the current deimos...
How ever armor and active tanking after so much reduction of the base HP, will make it WORST then NOW.

So yeah! Mr. "I like the new changes so much" maybe you lack experience with what you already have
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1118 - 2013-08-01 09:07:44 UTC
Quote:
[NEW Deimos, Deimos cant brawl??]
Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5



I don't think that's going to perform like you may think. I'll get on the test server later today, though, with an augoror to feed me cap and simulate the cap booster. I'll use it against some corp mates in a few different ships. Something tells me that this fit is going to melt, though. We'll see.
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#1119 - 2013-08-01 09:17:26 UTC
HACs as they are now lose to T1 cruisers and BCs due to lack of TANK. After previous buffs to T1 cruisers and introduction of T3 BCs game shifted from tank to gank. All ships that were booster before got a damage increase thus everything in eve now does more damage then it did before. I do realize that a sig reduction on HACs will affect their survivability in future against ships that use large guns but that still doesn't change anything or benefits HACs in general against other ships. If you will take a look at Vexor as it is now, that ship can put out around 800-900 DPS having pretty solid tank. I doubt any T2 cruiser will be able to come on top of that w/o choosing between tank or dps. But let's forget solo/small gang and take a look at larger fleets. In large fleets when 100 ships shoot 1 target they eventually will hit it w/o any issues. No matter how small it is and no matter what transversal it has there still will be 20 out of 100 which will hit it and that hit will be enough to instapop it. While HACs will have slightly higher rezists they won't have enough buffer to tank incoming damage while reps will land. As I already mentioned I loved flying dualrep Ishtar back in the days, I came up against different targets, brawled with 10 man drake gang and was able to down 2 before I went down myself, engaged cynabals and killed some etc. Same goes for Sacri. Both ships were amazing solo armor tanked ships. They were not overpowered, they had that nice difference from other ships that was giving pilot a pleasure of flying it. If you will use those ships now there's no chance of doing same things just because any high dps platform will just break through your rep cycles and your buffer won't be enough. So basically I want to ask if it is possible to increase main tank HP on T2 ships making them better then T1 hulls.

As for armor tanking, I think it should also be buffed slightly. Active shield tank these days is amazing, you are able to fit X-large booster on a huge variety of ships while armor reps are limited to hull size. shield tanked boat can rep same amount of HP using single rep as armor tanked boat does with 2. There are shield boost amplifiers while there's none for armor. Number of ASBs per ship are only limited by PG/CPU capabilities of said ship while you can fit only 1 AAR (limited size) on armor ship. I understand that this is completely different story, I just decided to include this in my post.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1120 - 2013-08-01 09:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
In large fleets when 100 ships shoot 1 target they eventually will hit it w/o any issues. No matter how small it is and no matter what transversal it has there still will be 20 out of 100 which will hit it and that hit will be enough to instapop it.


That's my concern, exactly. I don't like large fleets, but I do like small gang. With the Deimos sitting at 1750 base armor hp, that rep/AAR fit above, I think, will be volleyed pretty handily on approach by just a couple of ships. Against non-alpha ships, it seems like it would do well. But, most small gangs these days (at least in my region of space) have at least a couple of alpha-damage-oriented ships in their ranks with good tracking.