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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Randy Wray
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#981 - 2013-07-31 12:31:03 UTC
I gotta say I'd rather have a missile muninn than a scythe fleet issue with 40km webs (huginn) :P

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Kane Fenris
NWP
#982 - 2013-07-31 12:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
[edit] failquote sry
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#983 - 2013-07-31 12:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Akturous wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Akturous wrote:
It's been said adnorsium, but change the utility high on the Sac to a low slot, it has less damn lows than a diemos.

It's "ad nauseum" fyi, and the slot layout on the Sac is fine.


Thankyou for the correction, there's not much spelling in engineering and so I'm pretty terribrue at it.

However...the slot layout isn't fine. It doesn't need a utility high, but it does need an extra low, it's dps is so pathetic with 1bcu and the tank is too low with 2.

Use 1 BCS plus a T2 damage rig to solve this problem - losing a rig slot doesn't hurt your tank anything like as much as giving up a low for a second BCS. BCS II plus T2 bay loading accelerator gives you just shy of 600 dps with faction HAMs and a flight of hammerheads, which is plenty given that you have selectable damage types, can hit at good range, and have plenty of mids for tackle and painters to ensure good damage application.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#984 - 2013-07-31 12:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Fewell wrote:

The shield boosting bonus isn't a bad bonus, but it doesn't fit with the way most Vagas get flown. Another falloff bonus would allow a Vaga pilot to take advantage of selectable damage ammo at point range. Right now you have to load barrage.

Sooo... Loading long range ammo to be able to do damage at the longest unbonused point range is a bad thing? I want my Thorax to do 300 dps at 25km with Antimatter then.


Its worthing pointing out that at 25k a new Deimos loading null out DPSes a Vaga with Barrage or PP/EMP/Fusion loaded while having more EHP being completely cap stable having an extra flight of drones or the option of Valks instead of Warriors, while loosing only 300 M/s.

Good job CCP, really good job.

Edit; It also has the option of course of Loading CNAM having really good tracking and ~700 DPS before drones for those moments when you need to brawl.

It really does beg the question of what role the Vaga is going to fill post patch.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#985 - 2013-07-31 12:58:14 UTC
I still believe the Deimos would be better suited with the falloff bonus being changed to a tracking bonus.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#986 - 2013-07-31 13:01:06 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I still believe the Deimos would be better suited with the falloff bonus being changed to a tracking bonus.


I'm unsure, on paper a range bonus is pretty nice as it allows you to sit out at some 6-7K and still apply pretty much full damage with CNAM and heavy neutrons, I think the falloff bonus is pretty effective you just have to fly it right, don't brawl in like you would with a Thorax, hold a bit of range and you will apply full damage.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#987 - 2013-07-31 13:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Its worthing pointing out that at 25k a new Deimos loading null out DPSes a Vaga with Barrage or PP/EMP/Fusion loaded while having more EHP being completely cap stable having an extra flight of drones or the option of Valks instead of Warriors, while loosing only 300 M/s.

Good job CCP, really good job.

Edit; It also has the option of course of Loading CNAM having really good tracking and ~700 DPS before drones for those moments when you need to brawl.

It really does beg the question of what role the Vaga is going to fill post patch.

I raises the question actually. Begging the question is something else.

Actually, the shield Vaga and the Shield Deimos are so similar I'm surprised that nobody has pulled the "homogenization" card yet.

Vaga vs Deimos:
34,000 / 35,200 EHP
457 / 466 DPS max
(280 / 301 @20km) ( Fleet vs null)
(307 / 301 @20km) ( Barrage vs null)
2453 / 2106 m/s
0,1564 / 0,1333 tracking
7m49s / 56% cap
590 / 751 signature

Deimos wins when we add drones, Vaga wins on sig and speed and different types of damage.

Quote:
For those who wants to know:

Chocolate is healthful because it's good for you. That begs the question. How do you know chocolate is good for you?
Many people mistakenly believe it's OK to use the phrase to introduce a clever or obvious question.

After chronicling Natalie Coughlin's accomplishments, a reporter writes: "All of which begs the question, is Coughlin the best female swimmer this country has ever seen?
Here used wrongly because she just wonders if it is a fact.

If someone said, "Natalie Coughlin is the worlds best swimmer because she is the best swimmer", that would beg the question, why is she the best swimmer?


The more you know

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#988 - 2013-07-31 13:12:26 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Its worthing pointing out that at 25k a new Deimos loading null out DPSes a Vaga with Barrage or PP/EMP/Fusion loaded while having more EHP being completely cap stable having an extra flight of drones or the option of Valks instead of Warriors, while loosing only 300 M/s.

Good job CCP, really good job.

Edit; It also has the option of course of Loading CNAM having really good tracking and ~700 DPS before drones for those moments when you need to brawl.

It really does beg the question of what role the Vaga is going to fill post patch.

I raises the question actually. Begging the question is something else.

Actually, the shield Vaga and the Shield Deimos are so similar I'm surprised that nobody has pulled the "homogenization" card yet.

Vaga vs Deimos:
34,000 / 35,200 EHP
457 / 466 DPS max
(280 / 301 @20km) ( Fleet vs null)
(307 / 301 @20km) ( Barrage vs null)
2453 / 2106 m/s
0,1564 / 0,1333 tracking
7m49s / 56% cap
590 / 751 signature

Deimos wins when we add drones, Vaga wins on sig and speed and different types of damage.


Your forgetting the Deimos has the Option of loading CNAM and brawling and will win a lot of fights like that through sheer DPS (~850 with Heat Valks and CNAM, more with Void if you were brawing a BC or something) that's a pretty handy advantage and to be honest if the current raft of changes go through I will probably switch to a shield Deimos rather than the Vaga.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#989 - 2013-07-31 13:13:28 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I still believe the Deimos would be better suited with the falloff bonus being changed to a tracking bonus.


I'm unsure, on paper a range bonus is pretty nice as it allows you to sit out at some 6-7K and still apply pretty much full damage with CNAM and heavy neutrons, I think the falloff bonus is pretty effective you just have to fly it right, don't brawl in like you would with a Thorax, hold a bit of range and you will apply full damage.

With a Thorax you can brawl well using Void M, you can change up styles and use Null M and a Tracking Computer II with a range script in it and kite well now too.
With the Deimos you can kite.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#990 - 2013-07-31 13:16:25 UTC
Looks nice, but... Men, don't bring cap/s of ships with energy weapons (laser/rail) in line with ones without (missiles/projectiles/drones). Please. It makes sense, but looks unfair
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#991 - 2013-07-31 13:22:03 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Your forgetting the Deimos has the Option of loading CNAM and brawling and will win a lot of fights like that through sheer DPS (~850 with Heat Valks and CNAM, more with Void if you were brawing a BC or something) that's a pretty handy advantage and to be honest if the current raft of changes go through I will probably switch to a shield Deimos rather than the Vaga.

No, I'm not forgetting that. Welcome to the world of blasters. You can use them too you know.

There will be differences, deal with it. Like my last post regarding the Sacrilege, that ship gets twice the EHP of Vaga or Deimos and same dps. Yes, it's slower, but everyone seems to ignore speed as a factor when arguing for why the Vaga needs a bigger boost.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#992 - 2013-07-31 13:27:23 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Your forgetting the Deimos has the Option of loading CNAM and brawling and will win a lot of fights like that through sheer DPS (~850 with Heat Valks and CNAM, more with Void if you were brawing a BC or something) that's a pretty handy advantage and to be honest if the current raft of changes go through I will probably switch to a shield Deimos rather than the Vaga.

No, I'm not forgetting that. Welcome to the world of blasters. You can use them too you know.

There will be differences, deal with it. Like my last post regarding the Sacrilege, that ship gets twice the EHP of Vaga or Deimos and same dps. Yes, it's slower, but everyone seems to ignore speed as a factor when arguing for why the Vaga needs a bigger boost.


The amount of speed difference between the Deimos and the Vaga is pretty minimal, additionally the speed at which a ship goes only can get to a certain point before it just becomes a "fast ship", just being fast is fairly useless unless you want it to heavy tackle or just run away from things, it needs to actually be able to kill something in a reasonable amount of time to take advantage of that high speed while having limited EHP.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#993 - 2013-07-31 13:36:54 UTC
The Tank of the Sac looks fairly good to me. Think someone said 60k ehp, plus that's with epic resists. I'd like to see a bigger damage mod here or a change for the missile speed bonus to damage application (missile explosion size or sped - not sure which it'd benefit from most)

The missile dps is lower than the Cerb, but it gets choice in damage type and more drones. Works for me...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#994 - 2013-07-31 14:10:57 UTC
So why are people trying to shoehorn a vaga into the same area as a diemost?
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#995 - 2013-07-31 14:32:40 UTC
Sac:

Move high slot to low slot. Or give it another launcher.

Otherwise it looks fine.

Thanks.

Drones are stupid but whatever.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#996 - 2013-07-31 14:34:29 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Sac:

Move high slot to low slot. Or give it another launcher.

Otherwise it looks fine.

Thanks.

Drones are stupid but whatever.

I just posted a fit showing why that would be overpowered.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#997 - 2013-07-31 14:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Akturous wrote:

Thankyou for the correction, there's not much spelling in engineering and so I'm pretty terribrue at it.

However...the slot layout isn't fine. It doesn't need a utility high, but it does need an extra low, it's dps is so pathetic with 1bcu and the tank is too low with 2.

NP. Grammar naziing always comes off as rude, but it was in all niceness Smile

[NEW Sacrilege, test]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

5 x Hammerhead II

674 dps / 766 overloaded @ 25km (600/676 dps @ 30,4km with navy)
1316 m/s / 1860 ol
60,226 EHP

I simply can't agree with this being bad, sorry.
Adding another low to pump EHP up to 74,623 EHP is simply too much.

It's also cap stable at 40% with everything running.


The problem is that this is a very poor use of its attributes in most cases. It can't support any damage output while dual repping - that's always been its niche. A Hurricane can do pretty much what you just posted for 1/3 the price.

Also, for the love of god, use a rig to plug the therm hole.

All in all, I would prefer even a slight nerf in base damage for the flexibility of another low (while keeping the utility high!). Otherwise it will remain underpowered as a solo ship and unused as a fleet ship - it has essentially not changed, and even a Caracal is comparable to the fit you describe.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#998 - 2013-07-31 14:48:19 UTC
Please post your caracal fit with comparable stats.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#999 - 2013-07-31 14:54:31 UTC
66,8% Thermal resist is not much of a hole. you gain 6k EHP in thermal if you swap a trimark for anti-thermic but lose 15k EHP in explosive for dropping the trimark for example. Personal choise really.

I think it's a perfect use of it's bonuses really. The 4% armor resistance pr level is not any longer as good as the active rep bonus of 7.5%, so I think buffer is the way to go, at least for me.

A caracal gets 500m/s more, but a third of the tank, cap only lasts 1m 50sec, does 170 less dps, and has more than twice the sig radius.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1000 - 2013-07-31 14:55:10 UTC
Enough with HACs already... wasn't there supposed to be an announcement?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.