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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#961 - 2013-07-31 09:58:03 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Still disappointed to see no Minmatar Missile HAC. They're the ONLY race to not have a HAC for each racial weapon system. Doesn't seem like there's much point in even bothering with medium missiles for Minmatar unless you want to fly a cyclone. I still don't really see what the point of the Muninn is either.



No NO NO. This will be huginn role most likely. Since bellicose was made into missile boat, very likely the huginn will bcome focused in missiles as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#962 - 2013-07-31 09:59:32 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Make the vaga the arty / autocannon boat and the munnin the missile ship.



Taht is simply DUMB. the Missile hull for minmatar cruisers is the bellicose.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#963 - 2013-07-31 10:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
CCP Rise doesn't seem to give any credit for this concern but the uterly stupid MWD cap bonus on Deimos changed for a tracking one would simply make it worth fitting with rails, why?

Try to fit your Diemost with new modified 250's and spike, pick a simple Thorax and fit it the same.

Well one on EFT will have a massive dps boost but thing is with no tracking bonus on the hull a 15% nerf on Rails tracking that were already horrible at tracking despite those +15% given previously, will simply make Thorax the only viable option for Gallente cruiser sniping.

Why the hell would you fit a 240M ship for sniping when it can't put a hole on a moving elephant in front of it?

Thorax for 50M all fitted after a huge market space jewing scam will be far more effective and for more dps a blaster Talos full of TE's will put at least double dps holes at same optimal distance if med rails, a rails Talos will be 50% cheaper than that Diemost and still at least 200% more effective.

Think about it when you get some time for, I'm not talking about fap EFT/Pyfa numbers and awesome graphs, I'm talking about in game results even a noob with T1 med guns and a small experience can check.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#964 - 2013-07-31 10:24:58 UTC
If you have problems hitting targets with rails then you should not be posting in this thread. Use your own movement to cancel transversal. Hacs are not destroyers.. they should not be able to track frigates easily without any brains of the operator. THe deimos is much faster than a mega, therefore can easily cancel the trasnversal of most of its adversaries.. taht while sportign a nice 50% reduction on its signature radius while MWD on.

Hitting other cruisers is piece of cake with Rails. IT is easy with arties.. and arties have a far Worse tracking.

For deimos to have a tracking bonus it would need to loose some of its base damage.

So stop posting .. you clearly shown that you have not enough knowledge of the basics...

This is almost as senseless as the oens asking for a cerberus beign almsot as fast as vagabond.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Robin Toman
Sraer Jik
#965 - 2013-07-31 10:49:51 UTC
ok let me see a new vaga bonus

Ammars have Sacrilege with armor resist bonus
Caldary have Eagle with shield resist bonus

now the vaga for minmattars have a new shield boost bonus
why gallente dont have ANY tanking bonus on one of their Hacs ?
why deimos (mostly called a diemost) have most useless mwd cap bonus?
that ship really asking for tanking bonus like a armor rep bonus perhaps ?
she dont want to be called "diemost" anymore so give her some love please Cool
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#966 - 2013-07-31 10:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If you have problems hitting targets with rails then you should not be posting in this thread. Use your own movement to cancel transversal. Hacs are not destroyers.. they should not be able to track frigates easily without any brains of the operator. THe deimos is much faster than a mega, therefore can easily cancel the trasnversal of most of its adversaries.. taht while sportign a nice 50% reduction on its signature radius while MWD on.

Hitting other cruisers is piece of cake with Rails. IT is easy with arties.. and arties have a far Worse tracking.

For deimos to have a tracking bonus it would need to loose some of its base damage.

So stop posting .. you clearly shown that you have not enough knowledge of the basics...

This is almost as senseless as the oens asking for a cerberus beign almsot as fast as vagabond.



Your obvious "opness" attitude is way smaller than your arrogance but whatever.
Keep your blinders and thinking this is absolutely fantastic changes, stop posting if you have no constructive comments to post or just to be impolite/aggressive with other players

On topic: Deimost improvement is about dyeing faster with less base HP, fitting shield mods with rails and play with traversal to hit something because it's perfectly obvious Deimos is going to be OP after these changes.

Awesome improvement indeed....

EDIT: because I can and was worth the block

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#967 - 2013-07-31 11:03:21 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Your obvious "opness" attitude is way smaller than your arrogance but whatever.
Keep your blinders and thinking this is absolutely fantastic changes, stop posting if you have no constructive comments to post or just to be impolite/aggressive with other players, and finally try to get a life and a lady RL, that might help some of that bitterness leave you but I strongly doubt.

On topic: Deimost improvement is about dyeing faster with less base HP, fitting shield mods with rails and play with traversal to hit something because it's perfectly obvious Deimos is going to be OP after these changes.

Awesome improvement indeed....

Wow, that is the lowest I've seen someone sink on this forum. Sad.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#968 - 2013-07-31 11:04:27 UTC
I support the Missile Muninn as long as the Vagabond gets a good PWG boost.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#969 - 2013-07-31 11:06:25 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:


Jesus H. Christ man. Look at current Ishtar bonuses split up:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints
10% bonus to Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range(was bonus to drone bay capacity)
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Don't try and lecture me on bonuses when you have no clue yourself.
Just because you have a problem with understanding what I'm saying does not make me wrong.

People who want the Deimos to be "a mini Megathron" must be completely bonkers then according to you?

This is why we cant have nice discussions. Stupid people who can't read or understand fits.



Please explain to me again how to read Lol
Man you cannot post two consecutive posts about the same ship...

1-st you suggested 7.5% Sentry drone Speed bonus Lol

Quote:
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and Heavy Drone speed (was bonus to drone bay capacity)


Then you translated that in to:
Quote:
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range
7.5% bonus to Heavy drone speed

That's 3 bonuses unless I can't count also...

Then you again translated that in to:
Quote:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints
10% bonus to Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range(was bonus to drone bay capacity)
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)


Please make up your mind, what you want to suggest.

I will again post: This is why we can not get nice things. Since Page 1 we are full of EFT Warriors and "experts"
I can not wait till those get to Test server so we can see how bad or good they are.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#970 - 2013-07-31 11:12:48 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:

Please explain to me again how to read Lol
Man you cannot post two consecutive posts about the same ship...

1-st you suggested 7.5% Sentry drone Speed bonus Lol

Quote:
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
(7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range) and (Heavy Drone speed) This is not the same as
"7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy drone optimal range and speed". Need some reading comprehension maybe?


Then you translated that in to:
Quote:
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range
7.5% bonus to Heavy drone speed
Underlined is the same as:
(7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range) and (Heavy Drone speed)
Being able to read is a good thing here as well.

That's 3 bonuses unless I can't count also...

Then you again translated that in to:
No, I did not translate it into that, I said that *split up* these are the current proposed bonuses to the Ishtar
Quote:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints
10% bonus to Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range(was bonus to drone bay capacity)
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)


Please make up your mind, what you want to suggest.

I will again post: This is why we can not get nice things. Since Page 1 we are full of EFT Warriors and "experts"
I can not wait till those get to Test server so we can see how bad or good they are.



Ok, I'll explain it yet again for all you dull blades in the drawer. Explanation put in the quote.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#971 - 2013-07-31 11:13:02 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Akturous wrote:
It's been said adnorsium, but change the utility high on the Sac to a low slot, it has less damn lows than a diemos.

It's "ad nauseum" fyi, and the slot layout on the Sac is fine.


Thankyou for the correction, there's not much spelling in engineering and so I'm pretty terribrue at it.

However...the slot layout isn't fine. It doesn't need a utility high, but it does need an extra low, it's dps is so pathetic with 1bcu and the tank is too low with 2.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#972 - 2013-07-31 11:13:24 UTC
Robin Toman wrote:
ok let me see a new vaga bonus

Ammars have Sacrilege with armor resist bonus
Caldary have Eagle with shield resist bonus

now the vaga for minmattars have a new shield boost bonus
why gallente dont have ANY tanking bonus on one of their Hacs ?
why deimos (mostly called a diemost) have most useless mwd cap bonus?
that ship really asking for tanking bonus like a armor rep bonus perhaps ?
she dont want to be called "diemost" anymore so give her some love please Cool



For gangs Diemost is almost fine now and with a good FC you can spank many stuff ass because blaster fit owns quite well, for fleets it's another story, Pulse Zealots are better at everything you can imagine doing with Diemost and with LR weapons changes Zealot will still be the king of the hill folowed by Cerb and probably Munnin, Eagle will probably not be able to compete but we'll see that after hits on TQ, at least should be able to survive longer than Diemost

-Lasers +25% tracking will make them best choice because decent alpha and dps supported by the new tracking helping apply their dmg

-Rails will probably work at undocks gate camps and crap alike, for fleets it's just terribad and a Thorax will apply more dmg than Deimost by far, no matter how much bitters can say or fap over graphs, it will be terrible and they will only die pretty feeling special.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#973 - 2013-07-31 11:17:53 UTC
My point was that I wanted 10% bonus to tracking on Heavies and Sentries, but not change the 7.5% optimal bonus or speed, which was why I had to split it up a little.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#974 - 2013-07-31 11:24:38 UTC
Akturous wrote:

Thankyou for the correction, there's not much spelling in engineering and so I'm pretty terribrue at it.

However...the slot layout isn't fine. It doesn't need a utility high, but it does need an extra low, it's dps is so pathetic with 1bcu and the tank is too low with 2.

NP. Grammar naziing always comes off as rude, but it was in all niceness Smile

[NEW Sacrilege, test]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

5 x Hammerhead II

674 dps / 766 overloaded @ 25km (600/676 dps @ 30,4km with navy)
1316 m/s / 1860 ol
60,226 EHP

I simply can't agree with this being bad, sorry.
Adding another low to pump EHP up to 74,623 EHP is simply too much.

It's also cap stable at 40% with everything running.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Lei Merdeau
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#975 - 2013-07-31 11:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lei Merdeau
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Can we please move one of the med slots on the Ishtar to a low slot? Also what is your worry about the Ishtar?


please NO ! Shield Ishtars are a thing.
Maybe a faction mid slot drone damage mod for the traditionalist Gallente armour tankers?

ADDED: Maybe the HAC's true role is T2 resists? so they should have less of a resist hole than anything comparable.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#976 - 2013-07-31 11:34:11 UTC
Lei Merdeau wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Can we please move one of the med slots on the Ishtar to a low slot? Also what is your worry about the Ishtar?


please NO ! Shield Ishtars are a thing.
Maybe a faction mid slot drone damage mod for the traditionalist Gallente armour tankers?

+1 to NO.
Also we have midslot drone damage mods. Omnidirectionals. Not an increase in dps numbers on paper, but application gets better = better dps

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#977 - 2013-07-31 11:44:24 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.

The shield boosting bonus isn't a bad bonus, but it doesn't fit with the way most Vagas get flown. Another falloff bonus would allow a Vaga pilot to take advantage of selectable damage ammo at point range. Right now you have to load barrage.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#978 - 2013-07-31 11:45:34 UTC
Rise:

While you've done a good job overall addressing the intra-class balance issues with HACs (from the Sacrilege's wimpy dronebay and lack of utility being locked to HAMs, to the Muninn's low slot woes and the Ishtar's chronic fitting trouble, and even made a start on the Eagle), and the MWD bonus is a good start on making them more powerful as a whole, I feel it's not enough to distinguish them from their competition (T1 combat cruisers, DPS T3s, combat BCs, and especially ABCs). To that end, I propose cutting the base signature radii of the entire HAC class from its existing 130-140m down to 90-110m (or perhaps 100-120m if 90m sig on a cruiser is just too small). This across-the-board change would make the class 'stand out' in terms of resilience and give them a niche (nimble, sig tanking DPS cruiser) that is both filled by no other ship at this point in time and fits well with the way these ships are often used on TQ (in particular, AHAC and ABHAC doctrines would benefit heavily from this change, and so would the Vaga).
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#979 - 2013-07-31 12:08:52 UTC
Fewell wrote:

The shield boosting bonus isn't a bad bonus, but it doesn't fit with the way most Vagas get flown. Another falloff bonus would allow a Vaga pilot to take advantage of selectable damage ammo at point range. Right now you have to load barrage.

Sooo... Loading long range ammo to be able to do damage at the longest unbonused point range is a bad thing? I want my Thorax to do 300 dps at 25km with Antimatter then.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Kane Fenris
NWP
#980 - 2013-07-31 12:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Fewell wrote:

The shield boosting bonus isn't a bad bonus, but it doesn't fit with the way most Vagas get flown. Another falloff bonus would allow a Vaga pilot to take advantage of selectable damage ammo at point range. Right now you have to load barrage.

Sooo... Loading long range ammo to be able to do damage at the longest unbonused point range is a bad thing? I want my Thorax to do 300 dps at 25km with Antimatter then.



realisticly youll end up with about 200 in most cases still under 200.
and this with a fixed dmg pattern with not so great dmg composition.

considering youl have to outdps ships at that range cause your not that durable yes its dps is sucky
there are quite some ships that can even tank the dmg no problem.
and quite a another few who easyly can scare you off by their fire power..
and even if you find someone youl want to engage things can go south easy with a small piloting error when you get to close.
and as i stated earlier i want to kill more than frigates when i undock a vaga....