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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Landaz
Dexamenos Inc.
#941 - 2013-07-31 07:04:52 UTC
Lucien Cain wrote:
Gorgoth24 wrote:




P.S. Thanks for not giving the Sac another low


Please be so kind and explain to every single SAC pilot why a weaker tank is such a good idea?



I agree.
Give us our sac low slot!
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#942 - 2013-07-31 07:14:27 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Thats a solo fit, for any logi supported fleets that would be a total shitfit (due to how it would stack with legion links).


Interesting. How would you fit it for logi supported fleets?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#943 - 2013-07-31 07:15:09 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:

You're still showing more armor hp than I am calculating.

With a base armor of 1750 I get a total armor hp of 6988 in this fit. Can you demonstrate how you get to 8188? I'm not saying I don't believe you. It's that one of us has to be mistaken. I'm open to the idea that it's me, but if it is, I just haven't figured out how.

Strange. Maybe EFT applies skills to plates? Are you using the latest modified files? When I do the math I get the same result as you, but EFT does not agree apparently.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#944 - 2013-07-31 07:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:

You're still showing more armor hp than I am calculating.

With a base armor of 1750 I get a total armor hp of 6988 in this fit. Can you demonstrate how you get to 8188? I'm not saying I don't believe you. It's that one of us has to be mistaken. I'm open to the idea that it's me, but if it is, I just haven't figured out how.

Strange. Maybe EFT applies skills to plates? Are you using the latest modified files? When I do the math I get the same result as you, but EFT does not agree apparently.


Yeah. I figured it out. EFT does (Base Armor HP*1.25)+Plate.

I had figured it was (Base Armor HP*1.25)+Plate.

Still, though, it's a three thousand EHP loss, and the Diemos was already the Diemost. It seems rather unnecessary.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#945 - 2013-07-31 07:19:20 UTC
Still disappointed to see no Minmatar Missile HAC. They're the ONLY race to not have a HAC for each racial weapon system. Doesn't seem like there's much point in even bothering with medium missiles for Minmatar unless you want to fly a cyclone. I still don't really see what the point of the Muninn is either.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#946 - 2013-07-31 07:36:32 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Still disappointed to see no Minmatar Missile HAC. They're the ONLY race to not have a HAC for each racial weapon system. Doesn't seem like there's much point in even bothering with medium missiles for Minmatar unless you want to fly a cyclone. I still don't really see what the point of the Muninn is either.


I do support this.
Please make the vaga a missile boat.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#947 - 2013-07-31 07:37:45 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Still disappointed to see no Minmatar Missile HAC. They're the ONLY race to not have a HAC for each racial weapon system. Doesn't seem like there's much point in even bothering with medium missiles for Minmatar unless you want to fly a cyclone. I still don't really see what the point of the Muninn is either.


I do support this.
Please make the vaga a missile boat.

I support this if only for the tears. They might even rival when the Sliephnir gets changed to a Hurricane hull.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#948 - 2013-07-31 07:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Considering how long they've been in the dog house, possible temporary HAC OPness is not really something i as a PVP player would be terribly upset with....

This is Eve, 'temporary OP'ness' has so far meant 2-3 years or forever .. and even if .. what would end their reign when the time comes, we are pretty much done with the "normal pew hull" tiericide. Best not Big smile
This is 2013, CCP's dedicated balance team would like to say hello and welcome you

That's the claim/idea and I may believe it when I see it Smile
sten mattson wrote:
the sac needs the utility high , but it also needs a low so just take away a launcher , tweak the bonuses so the dmg stays the same , and move one high to low slots.

voila , the sacrilege is fixed!

also the zealot needs drones

Damnit, had to sleep .. that is what I was going to say, except for the last part as drones will and cannot fix what amounts to an application/control issue.
Sacrilege: Increasing RoF and Damage to 7.5%/level and moving a launcher to a low slot yields a whopping dps increase equalling half a launcher, insignificant but quite frankly warranted now that guns are no longer even an option .. can even leave the pointless* range bonus for all I care if done that way. Besides, if Gallente can have a high moved to the far more powerful middle rack (guilt tripping Devs, hahahahaha).

Zealot: It is Godly on the larger scale (>5) where overlapping fields of fire makes sure nothing comes away unharmed, but less leaves very little options if winning is the aim.
Drones would help of course but doesn't fix the problem which is cap and damage application (the two are related). Neuts have been a constant in pew since the Nos nerf all those years ago and with tiericide's added mids to everything not sporting the snazzy Amarr emblem you now get TD spammed in PvP so it feels like running that horrible Sansha Blockade.
Tracking bonus solves the small but breaks the large so that is out.
Drones (25m3) doesn't do anything apart from adding to the micro and distracting the enemy on the small and with current meta in mind would just result in even more sentries under Da Blob FC's control or blot out the sun with ec300 on the large.
So what could solve it? .. as I see it there are two options:
1. Remove the laser cap bonus and introduce a brand new one to the balancing toolbox to be used (ad libitum on Amarr gun boats of course!): +10%/level effect of cap modules. Includes relays, flux coils, injectors, rechargers and batteries.
2. Add the 3rd pulse to the Medium and Large categories. Extreme tracking with reduced range and negligible falloff.
Adds an option to counter some of the TD spam on the small scale without breaking the large scale where range/oomph is all you want to make the sphere of death as potent as possible.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#949 - 2013-07-31 07:43:46 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Still disappointed to see no Minmatar Missile HAC. They're the ONLY race to not have a HAC for each racial weapon system. Doesn't seem like there's much point in even bothering with medium missiles for Minmatar unless you want to fly a cyclone. I still don't really see what the point of the Muninn is either.


I do support this.
Please make the vaga a missile boat.

Surely Munnin?

Another candidate for redeeming the split weapon system maybe? Just give the Munnin a full set of launcher and turret hardpoints and a full strength bonus for each and let the players and the metagame do what they want with it.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#950 - 2013-07-31 08:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Lizardov
Quote:
EAGLE


Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 990 PWG(+115), 440 CPU(+2)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1350(-25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.29/s (+1.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 180(+16) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+20km) / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 25 Gravimetric(+7)
Signature radius: 140(-10)


Why do we have dual 10% Optimal Bonus ? Optimal bonus on a Hybrid Weapon system ?

Why the Eagle is the only HAC with one dmg bonus?

Please change one of the optimal bonuses to RoF, DMG or Tracking .

A RoF bonus will make same as Sacrilege but with shields.
Sacre bonuses:
+ 5% DMG + 4% resists + 10% Range + 5% RoF


On the same note, about putting some sense into the interracial balance.
Amar has a HAC with a resist bonus
Caldary has a HAC with a resist bonus
Minmatar will have a HAC with active tank bonus (a waste of TIME!!!)

Gallente: Does not have nor Resist bonus nor Active tank bonus
Since the Deimost is already broken. . . shield gallente ship by the new design, please give the Ishtar an Active Armour Bonus

ISHTAR

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus:
7.5% increase to armor repair amount per level
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level.

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed (all drones not just sentry)

Quote:
Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145
KatanTharkay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#951 - 2013-07-31 08:59:16 UTC
This balance pass looks nice, I can't wait to start testing and give feedback Lol
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#952 - 2013-07-31 09:01:52 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:

ISHTAR

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus:
7.5% increase to armor repair amount per level
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level.

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed (all drones not just sentry)

Please no, we already have 2 repping BC's.

If I were to give my take on it, I would give it the following:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Drone and Sentry Drone tracking (was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and Heavy Drone speed (was bonus to drone bay capacity)

But I think the tracking of 10% is a bit much stepping on the Dominix' toes. Whatevs really, the Ishtar is fine now with the new CPU.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
NorthCrossroad
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#953 - 2013-07-31 09:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: NorthCrossroad
This pass got to be overall much better than previous. On this good job.

The ship changes that bother me is sacrilege. With pretty low speed it's natural role was to brawl. And cap bonus with resist bonus supported that behavior.

Now it can shoot HMLs and lol-kite with HAMs. HMLs are really weak while HAMs still need decent tackle to make it do the damage. So as a fact real damage for the main role, brawling, haven't changed (well drones aside).

So basically what you did with changes to sac:
- nerfed sac active tanking ability that allowed it to ourlast the opponent
- made the sac a crappy, crappy kiter
- didn't change damage projection for it's main role, brawling, which was a big reason why noone was flying sac - it couldn't kill the target in time until his buddies arrived.

Why do you hate that ship so much? It is a very nice looking ship, but people will still won't fly it :(


So my suggestion would be:
Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
- 7.5 (was 5)% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (if you so want HMLs lol)
- 4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
- 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time
- 7.5 (was 5)% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire


North
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#954 - 2013-07-31 09:15:00 UTC
NorthCrossroad wrote:
This pass got to be overall much better than previous. On this good job.

The ship changes that bother me is sacrilege. With pretty low speed it's natural role was to brawl. And cap bonus with resist bonus supported that behavior.

Now it can shoot HMLs and lol-kite with HAMs. HMLs are really weak while HAMs still need decent tackle to make it do the damage. So as a fact real damage for the main role, brawling, haven't changed (well drones aside).

So basically what you did with changes to sac:
- nerfed sac active tanking ability that allowed it to ourlast the opponent
- made the sac a crappy, crappy kiter
- didn't change damage projection for it's main role, brawling, which was a big reason why noone was flying sac - it couldn't kill the target in time until his buddies arrived.

Why do you hate that ship so much? It is a very nice looking ship, but people will still won't fly it :(


So my suggestion would be:
Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
- 7.5 (was 5)% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (if you so want HMLs lol)
- 4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
- 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time
- 7.5 (was 5)% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire


North

Feels good being ignorant right?

Old Sacrilege cap with 2 medium armor repairers:
2m 21s

New Sacrilege cap with 2 medium armor repairers:
2m 37s

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#955 - 2013-07-31 09:15:43 UTC
Make the vaga the arty / autocannon boat and the munnin the missile ship.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#956 - 2013-07-31 09:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Lizardov
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Dani Lizardov wrote:

ISHTAR
....

Please no, we already have 2 repping BC's.

If I were to give my take on it, I would give it the following:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Drone and Sentry Drone tracking (was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and Heavy Drone speed (was bonus to drone bay capacity)

But I think the tracking of 10% is a bit much stepping on the Dominix' toes. Whatevs really, the Ishtar is fine now with the new CPU.



Why do you even compare ishtar to dominix ?

And I like your proposal on 7.5% speed to the Sentry Drones.... I guess Nannoid was right
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#957 - 2013-07-31 09:31:09 UTC
Dani Lizardov wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Dani Lizardov wrote:

ISHTAR
....

Please no, we already have 2 repping BC's.

If I were to give my take on it, I would give it the following:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Drone and Sentry Drone tracking (was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and Heavy Drone speed (was bonus to drone bay capacity)

But I think the tracking of 10% is a bit much stepping on the Dominix' toes. Whatevs really, the Ishtar is fine now with the new CPU.



Why do you even compare ishtar to dominix ?

And I like your proposal on 7.5% speed to the Sentry Drones.... I guess Nannoid was right

That is not what I mean by the last bonus.

Since reading is hard, I'll spell it out more clearly by separating them for you.
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Drone and Sentry Drone tracking (was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range
7.5% bonus to Heavy drone speed

I combined the last two because they get the same value bonus, and like this it looks like 3 bonuses

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#958 - 2013-07-31 09:37:09 UTC
And yeah, why would I ever compare the Ishtar to the Dominix? I mean, thats insane, there is literally nothing similar between them.

Ishtar is slow, Domi is slow... Ok, one thing.
Ishtar is droneboat, Domi is.. Droneboat.. Well two things.
Ishtar can field 5 Heavies and Domi. same. Damn...
Ishtar has room for lots of spare drones, Domi as well.
Ishtar has drone damage, range and tracking bonus. WTF, Domi too??

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#959 - 2013-07-31 09:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Lizardov
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Dani Lizardov wrote:
[quote=Hannott Thanos][quote=Dani Lizardov]
ISHTAR
....

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range
7.5% bonus to Heavy drone speed

I combined the last two because they get the same value bonus, and like this it looks like 3 bonuses


Now you are giving 3 bonuses on the Ishtar, wile all other HACs have 2...


[quote]And yeah, why would I ever compare the Ishtar to the Dominix? I mean, thats insane, there is literally nothing similar between them.

Ishtar is slow, Domi is slow... Ok, one thing.
Ishtar is droneboat, Domi is.. Droneboat.. Well two things.
Ishtar can field 5 Heavies and Domi. same. Damn...
Ishtar has room for lots of spare drones, Domi as well.
Ishtar has drone damage, range and tracking bonus. WTF, Domi too??


Ishtar: 1600 m/s with mwd is slow

And Do not forget that the Ishtar is cruiser class the domi is a Battle Ship class.




P.S. This is why we can not get nice things any-more. EFT Warriors and "experts" all the way since page one....
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#960 - 2013-07-31 09:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Dani Lizardov wrote:


Now you are giving 3 bonuses on the Ishtar, wile all other HACs have 2...


Hannott Thanos wrote:
And yeah, why would I ever compare the Ishtar to the Dominix? I mean, thats insane, there is literally nothing similar between them.

Ishtar is slow, Domi is slow... Ok, one thing.
Ishtar is droneboat, Domi is.. Droneboat.. Well two things.
Ishtar can field 5 Heavies and Domi. same. Damn...
Ishtar has room for lots of spare drones, Domi as well.
Ishtar has drone damage, range and tracking bonus. WTF, Domi too??


Ishtar: 1600 m/s with mwd is slow

And Do not forget that the Ishtar is cruiser class the domi is a Battle Ship class.




P.S. This is why we can not get nice things any-more. EFT Warriors and "experts" all the way since page one....


Jesus H. Christ man. Look at current Ishtar bonuses split up:

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints
10% bonus to Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range(was bonus to drone bay capacity)
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Don't try and lecture me on bonuses when you have no clue yourself.
Just because you have a problem with understanding what I'm saying does not make me wrong.

People who want the Deimos to be "a mini Megathron" must be completely bonkers then according to you?

This is why we cant have nice discussions. Stupid people who can't read or understand fits.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}