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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#921 - 2013-07-31 03:54:00 UTC
It's been said adnorsium, but change the utility high on the Sac to a low slot, it has less damn lows than a diemos.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#922 - 2013-07-31 03:57:26 UTC
the sac needs the utility high , but it also needs a low so just take away a launcher , tweak the bonuses so the dmg stays the same , and move one high to low slots.

voila , the sacrilege is fixed!

also the zealot needs drones

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Justin Cody
War Firm
#923 - 2013-07-31 04:08:21 UTC
Akturous wrote:
It's been said adnorsium, but change the utility high on the Sac to a low slot, it has less damn lows than a diemos.


^pretty much that^

Otherwise all looks good to me. Should be interesting to see all the vaga gangs out. The current meta is all about kite/nano/control so should be popular no matter what.

With the Deimos's 4th mid slot that might give brawlers a bit of an edge in catching or negating some effects of vagas and friends. (TD them to death as an example), or range damp to force in closer. There does need to be some way to force minmatar pilots to commit to a fight. I think most people hate that feeling of being tackled and dying from 1K paper cuts cause your ship is just too slow for no good reason other than...minmatar are fast yo!

Least advanced race in EVE has most advanced ships as far as I can tell. The eagle isn't a counter to the vaga in any way...nor is the zealot thanks to the ridiculous EM resists on t2 minnie stuff. The cerb? maybe. I'll be giving them all a try and with HAC V I'll make a decent report.
Yahyan
Shayol Ghul Forge
#924 - 2013-07-31 04:22:52 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
the sac needs the utility high , but it also needs a low so just take away a launcher , tweak the bonuses so the dmg stays the same , and move one high to low slots.

voila , the sacrilege is fixed!

also the zealot needs drones


Exactly
@CCP
You did not fix lasers, at least give amarr some love which you are granting other races generously.
Zetak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#925 - 2013-07-31 05:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zetak
Great job on the cerb. Every change I like. One thing I do not like though, and that is the missile flight time bonus. Dump it, burn it, exile into another dimension, and increase missile velocity bonus to 2x50%. The problem with missiles at longer ranges -as every player knows - is the infamous missile speed, which makes long range missile combat a pain in the...you know :) I barely dare to say that if you fight at shorter ranges the bonus is wasted (with heavy missiles)
Having 100% speed, the projected missiles would get as close to turret insta hit as possible, while the ship keeps the long range dedication. What would change in terms of missile range? Nothing. What would change in terms of efficiency? Everything. I like the idea of a very fast missile much more, than of a longer flight time one. It is a better fit to the med long range missile and assault platform role you want to give the ship. After 5 years of missile pew pew, I can honestly say a fast missile is waaay better than a slower but longer flying one.

Oh one thing though. I really think that either the sacr should gain a missile slot or the cerb should lose one, because being armor tanked the sacr is, it can use much less bcs if any, and with cerb having the capability to use at least 2 while having a bulky tank, the sacr is lagging waay back in terms of damage.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#926 - 2013-07-31 05:12:45 UTC
Akturous wrote:
It's been said adnorsium, but change the utility high on the Sac to a low slot, it has less damn lows than a diemos.

It's "ad nauseum" fyi, and the slot layout on the Sac is fine.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#927 - 2013-07-31 05:26:47 UTC
Zetak wrote:
One thing I do not like though, and that is the missile flight time bonus. Dump it, burn it, exile into another dimension, and increase missile velocity bonus to 2x50%. The problem with missiles at longer ranges -as every player knows - is the infamous missile speed, which makes long range missile combat a pain in the...you know :) I barely dare to say that if you fight at shorter ranges the bonus is wasted (with heavy missiles)
Having 100% speed, the projected missiles would get as close to turret insta hit as possible, while the ship keeps the long range dedication. What would change in terms of missile range? Nothing. What would change in terms of efficiency? Everything. I like the idea of a very fast missile much more, than of a longer flight time one. It is a better fit to the med long range missile and assault platform role you want to give the ship. After 5 years of missile pew pew, I can honestly say a fast missile is waaay better than a slower but longer flying one.

+1000

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#928 - 2013-07-31 05:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Been running some numbers on the Deimos.

55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?


You sure that EHP isn't the current numbers? I plug in your setup and get the same DPS and speed. But, with the reduction in base armor HP and base hull HP, I don't calculate anywhere near 55k. The rest of the setup seems close enough. But, the CURRENT Deimos does 55k EHP before the base HP nerf. I don't think the new is getting that number at all.

Also, it looks like this "barely" fits with AWU 5. Fine by me, but it's a rather unrealistic fit for the vast majority of pilots.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#929 - 2013-07-31 05:46:05 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:


You sure that EHP isn't the current numbers? I plug in your setup and get the same DPS and speed. But, with the reduction in base armor HP and base hull HP, I don't calculate anywhere near 55k. The rest of the setup seems close enough. But, the CURRENT Deimos does 55k EHP before the base HP nerf. I don't think the new is getting that number at all.

Also, it looks like this "barely" fits with AWU 5. Fine by me, but it's a rather unrealistic fit for the vast majority of pilots.


[NEW Deimos, test tank]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Stasis Webifier II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I


Hammerhead II x5

55,263 EHP
1686 m/s
727 dps


Not the fit I would use, but he is right with his numbers

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#930 - 2013-07-31 05:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Not the fit I would use, but he is right with his numbers


How are you getting 55k ehp with hundreds of points less in base armor and hull?

Quote:
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M(+1), 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1350(+190) / 1750(-290) / 2000(-531)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400(+25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.5/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 270 / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150(-10)


The bolded portions are showing me a lot less than 55k. 55k is what it gets NOW with that setup. I don't see how it gets that in the future after losing these numbers.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#931 - 2013-07-31 06:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Here:

http://i.imgur.com/awemKOf.png

That one does not include drone damage mind you. Dps from drones: 158,4, 727 total Dps

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#932 - 2013-07-31 06:10:54 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
the sac needs the utility high , but it also needs a low so just take away a launcher , tweak the bonuses so the dmg stays the same , and move one high to low slots.

voila , the sacrilege is fixed!

also the zealot needs drones


THIS! There is clearly a common consensus about how the SAC needs to be changed in order to become a viable ship worth of it's cost and training time. Most people tend to ignore how time consuming it is to actually fly a HAC properly. There is clearly enough evidence for CCP that many people would love to see the SAC get it's reasonable share of changes and upgrades. None of the suggestions and advices would make it OP, so the Balance would be served without compromise.

Alright CCP...we are roasting in the fires of our own devotion to the game. Could you give us an answer please?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#933 - 2013-07-31 06:15:17 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Show the fit, remember no deadspace, faction, or officer mods.


[Deimos, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5


Enjoy


Nice one! You can get away with a small cap booster, swap rigs to T2 Burst and ACR and upgrade guns to Ions. T2 plate will fit, and if you opt for a RAH instead of second EANM, you can drop the explo hardener for a second magstab. Not much less EHP against Barrage, and more against other damage types.

That's surprisingly viable, I've based my fits on 800mm plates which is quite a bit thinner in tank, but the 1600 looks rock solid for logi gangs and is a faster alternative to a Proteus.

.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#934 - 2013-07-31 06:17:31 UTC
Thats a solo fit, for any logi supported fleets that would be a total shitfit (due to how it would stack with legion links).
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#935 - 2013-07-31 06:26:07 UTC
Yeah, I'd drop the second EANM for a mag like said. Not sure if RAH stacks with links, does it?

.
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#936 - 2013-07-31 06:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hortoken Wolfbrother
Decided to investigate the deimos further now that I'm back. Compared it to pretty much every ship.

If I limited myself to t2 and worse, I couldn't make a ship that was completely better in every possible regard, but i was able to make ships that were mostly better for much cheaper. In every case, the deimos would end up out shining them in one stat (typically speed), but be inferior in all others while still being able to tackle effectively. I decided after that to compare it to the proteus out of interest. I came up with the following fit after about 3 minutes of trying. There's a lot of holes, but it exemplifies the problem I have with the current design approach to hacs:

[Proteus, New Setup 1]
Overdrive Injector System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M


Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hammerhead II x5

Its superior to the example deimos in all possible regards. Its faster, it does more damage, it has more tank, and it even has 3 rig slots to play around with on top of already accomplishing all these things. There's plenty of grid to fit a cap booster plus some ewar mods, and it has special bonuses that make it far superior to the deimos, especially extended warp scram/disruptor range. I did this mostly so I could evaluate just how desirable the new hacs would be, since this setup could currently be flown by anyone.

So ask yourself. Are there lots of people flying proteus's like this? Is this ship actually going to be desirable to fly if this is all it is? Its essentially a poor mans bad version of this proteus, and if thats all hacs are going to be after their buff- no thanks.

I want hacs to be specialized, is it too much to ask for them to get a role and be designed around accomplishing that role. ATM they're just another ship- and sadly one that is kinda in the middle. These changes do nothing to alter that problem.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#937 - 2013-07-31 06:37:46 UTC
+1

THAT GRAPH HELPED A LOT. I never realized how unintuitive tracking was before, or how much sig resolution affected damage when talking about anything but a dual-prop brawler.

Overall the changes make a lot more sense. Increased fitting on Ishtar, Check. Damage projection on the new Sac, Check. Cerberus looking mean as a skirmisher, Check. Still skeptical about the Eagle, but I'm sure the medium railgun changes will make the Eagle very powerful.

Much improved on this pass, thanks Rise!

P.S. Thanks for not giving the Sac another low
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#938 - 2013-07-31 06:52:43 UTC
Gorgoth24 wrote:




P.S. Thanks for not giving the Sac another low


Please be so kind and explain to every single SAC pilot why a weaker tank is such a good idea?
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#939 - 2013-07-31 07:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Here:

http://i.imgur.com/awemKOf.png

That one does not include drone damage mind you. Dps from drones: 158,4, 727 total Dps


You're still showing more armor hp than I am calculating.

With a base armor of 1750 I get a total armor hp of 6988 in this fit. Can you demonstrate how you get to 8188? I'm not saying I don't believe you. It's that one of us has to be mistaken. I'm open to the idea that it's me, but if it is, I just haven't figured out how.

**EDIT** Ignore this. I figured it out. I was calculating things in the wrong order. It's (Base+Plate)*1.25. I was doing (Base*1.25)+Plate.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#940 - 2013-07-31 07:00:30 UTC
i still dont understand the new vaga bonuses,
if you fit a L-ASB you get overall 1800 more raw hp than a LSE, this mean you from the average 29K EHP of a dual LSE vaga to maybe 35K with overload with a LSE+LASB combo, plus you are more at risk of being alpha-ed or being outganked before you use all your charges, plus you need more micro managing, since its so easy to kite especially now that all the other races are getting faster and the vaga its getting slower, right? not really worthy me think.
if you try to fit an XL-ASB you have to do so many compromises that the thing start to be ridiculous, like no mwd, no medium neut, you cant even think about fitting something more than 180mm AC, lots of fitting mods, this bring you a ship that surely can tank but have the same (or less) dps of T1 cruiser.

also the "brawling vaga" seems such a good idea but wasnt brawling considered unworthy with HACs (see diemost)?

can we get some extra fittings on the ship or another bonus? maybe a good one?