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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#901 - 2013-07-31 00:45:49 UTC
Koshie Naranek wrote:
A few thoughts, but I am probably way off.

Recently every time a Minmatar ship has been redesigned it has been cursed.

The Tempest looks so good. And now is the worst tech 1 BS in the game (7/6/6 slot layout please, who the hell armor tanks this thing with only 6 low slots and still have room for gyro's). Two neuts are nice, if you are trying to kill supers. You will still have one high utility slot left. Geddon is your new neut boat anyways.

The Stabber (especially the vaga variant) looks a lot better, but its a shield tanker with 4 mid slots.

The Muninn (no the Rupture hull hasn't been redesigned, but it should be, but after the Moa...WTF) should get that extra high slot transferred to a mid, not a low slot. Everyone shield tanks Muninns for a reason.

I know you are trying to add variety but Minmatar are shield tankers by nature. Not armor tankers. Look at the t2 resist profile for shields vs armor on mini ships. We have Gallente and Amarr for armor tanking.

I should have posted anonymously, as I am just rambling. But these are some thoughts I've had for a while.


But overall thanks Rise for the changes. All the changes. You must have some really thick skin. Or a lot of tear collection buckets.


+1, I believe minn need to have more shield tanking ships.
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#902 - 2013-07-31 00:52:21 UTC
Blastil wrote:
I like these much better. At least gallente have ONE working HAC. Now as for the other one:

I'm not sure why you're nerfing the diemos so hard on hitpoints? why the mad dash for this? its already a fragile ship, and giving it a 4th mid won't make it a shield tanker through magic and pixy dust.

Its only hope is to be like the taranis: omni tanked, relying on high damage and high hitpoints to do anything significant. At least give me my honor structure tank back rise...


Been running some numbers on the Deimos.

55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#903 - 2013-07-31 01:07:53 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
[quote=Blastil]55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?



I wonder if a talos can beat every single one of those stats at once. My guess is yes. 2/3 is easy, but someone should do the 3/3 for me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#904 - 2013-07-31 01:07:56 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Blastil wrote:
I like these much better. At least gallente have ONE working HAC. Now as for the other one:

I'm not sure why you're nerfing the diemos so hard on hitpoints? why the mad dash for this? its already a fragile ship, and giving it a 4th mid won't make it a shield tanker through magic and pixy dust.

Its only hope is to be like the taranis: omni tanked, relying on high damage and high hitpoints to do anything significant. At least give me my honor structure tank back rise...


Been running some numbers on the Deimos.

55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?


Show the fit, remember no deadspace, faction, or officer mods.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Stridsflygplan
Deliverance.
Arrival.
#905 - 2013-07-31 01:13:55 UTC
Iam satisfied. Even if there are people screaming for moar I think you should wait until pirate and T3 ship are done and then go back and take a look if there is something that need a nerf or buff.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#906 - 2013-07-31 01:18:18 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Blastil wrote:
I like these much better. At least gallente have ONE working HAC. Now as for the other one:

I'm not sure why you're nerfing the diemos so hard on hitpoints? why the mad dash for this? its already a fragile ship, and giving it a 4th mid won't make it a shield tanker through magic and pixy dust.

Its only hope is to be like the taranis: omni tanked, relying on high damage and high hitpoints to do anything significant. At least give me my honor structure tank back rise...


Been running some numbers on the Deimos.

55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?


I think people want their HAC to have current combat T3 performances, but cheaper ; but they actually care about balance you know...

Besides, real numbers are boring. You can't whine with real numbers : they are not bad enough so it's better to invent a ship which combine everything from any ship you can think about and bringing it on the table with the good number to counter any one number of the HAC. That way, you have an allmighty Talos-Tornado-Thorax-Tengu-Megathron to kill anything with turrets not OP enough to kill a titan with one gun.

More seriously, as said, the railgun Deimos will be a better Talos, and all the problems related to blaster Deimos are pure invention or blaster specific problems (or inherent drawback, like the range). With the Muninn, the problem is that people believe the Tornado is able to one shot any cruiser within 100km, which is completely crazy. And for some reason, people want the Sacrilege to have the same dps of a turret ship with missiles, and still have a BS tank. And finaly the Eagle : the buff is to expect from the railguns themselves. Expect 400dps@50km. Of course the Naga, but the tracking... Large Railgun won't hit anything below 50km...
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#907 - 2013-07-31 01:18:23 UTC
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
DeadDuck wrote:
[quote=Blastil]55K EHP fragile ship ?
1700 m/s (2385 m/s overheated) to a armor ship ?
727 DPS (812 DPS overheated) ?
Cap stable ?
All this without a single gang bonus applied ?

What are you complaining about?



I wonder if a talos can beat every single one of those stats at once. My guess is yes. 2/3 is easy, but someone should do the 3/3 for me.


Nailed it-
Pretty baller, lol. Good luck killing anyone, but I'm sure what you have is equally hapless.

[Talos, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Overdrive Injector System II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#908 - 2013-07-31 01:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: DeadDuck
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Show the fit, remember no deadspace, faction, or officer mods.


[Deimos, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5


Enjoy
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#909 - 2013-07-31 01:21:06 UTC
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:

Nailed it-
Pretty baller, lol. Good luck killing anyone, but I'm sure what you have is equally hapless.

[Talos, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Overdrive Injector System II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I



I have my suspicious that you are not the guy making the PL fits for the Alliance Tournement. Lol
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#910 - 2013-07-31 01:37:31 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Show the fit, remember no deadspace, faction, or officer mods.


[Deimos, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5


Enjoy

Ok I will enjoy.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#911 - 2013-07-31 02:05:12 UTC
Blastil wrote:
I like these much better. At least gallente have ONE working HAC. Now as for the other one:

I'm not sure why you're nerfing the diemos so hard on hitpoints? why the mad dash for this? its already a fragile ship, and giving it a 4th mid won't make it a shield tanker through magic and pixy dust.

Its only hope is to be like the taranis: omni tanked, relying on high damage and high hitpoints to do anything significant. At least give me my honor structure tank back rise...


.... I have no clue....

Put the hit points in its tank.

Yaay!!!!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#912 - 2013-07-31 02:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And finaly the Eagle : the buff is to expect from the railguns themselves. Expect 400dps@50km. Of course the Naga, but the tracking... Large Railgun won't hit anything below 50km...


Future Eagle Duality Test Subject:

High:
250 II x 5
Mid:
MWD
LSE II x 2
Adaptive II
TC II x 2
Low:
MFS II x 3
RCU II
Rigs:
EM Shield
Ionic Field Projector

480 DPS at 53km with faction AM before overheating is my thoughts - 45k EHP before boost links. With damage implants it will break 500 DPS. You can get a 5% medium hybrid damage implant for less then 9 million isk. Tracking computers give you some help with range vs. tracking.
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#913 - 2013-07-31 02:18:02 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
I have my suspicious that you are not the guy making the PL fits for the Alliance Tournement. Lol

You said a ship was good. I made a ship that was better in every possible regard than what you claimed, for what, 1/4 the price?

Sounds to me like you got walked on son.
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#914 - 2013-07-31 02:31:27 UTC
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
DeadDuck wrote:
I have my suspicious that you are not the guy making the PL fits for the Alliance Tournement. Lol

You said a ship was good. I made a ship that was better in every possible regard than what you claimed, for what, 1/4 the price?

Sounds to me like you got walked on son.


Her'e is my advice: wait for papa Shadoo to think for a good Deimos setup based on the good base features the ship now has and then buy it from alliance contracts in order you don'y have to actually fit it. Then just follow orders and be a l33t. Blink
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#915 - 2013-07-31 02:43:29 UTC
not gonna bother with a big post again since it clearly got ignored last time but the deimos is clearly going to continue being a useless ship I see. Thanks?

it's gonna be fun pretending to be a Talos with the deimos now! but without the range and the dmg? is it even faster than a talos? well if we go rails on it maybe it'll TRUELY SHINE! WHAT A BEAST! /sarcasm off.
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#916 - 2013-07-31 02:47:39 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
DeadDuck wrote:
I have my suspicious that you are not the guy making the PL fits for the Alliance Tournement. Lol

You said a ship was good. I made a ship that was better in every possible regard than what you claimed, for what, 1/4 the price?

Sounds to me like you got walked on son.


Her'e is my advice: wait for papa Shadoo to think for a good Deimos setup based on the good base features the ship now has and then buy it from alliance contracts in order you don'y have to actually fit it. Then just follow orders and be a l33t. Blink

NO DONT MAKE FUN OF MY FITTING SKILLS PLS NO.

Guess this is where I get all etough and break out my street cred. Get as far as me in the alliance tourney as a team captain and we can speak buddy.
Behnid Arcani
The Lucky Rogers
#917 - 2013-07-31 03:10:49 UTC
As a Khanid, thank you for the new Sacrilege. I've been waiting for that bonus to be applied to long range weapons forever. I see it becoming a very popular screen ship in the future... that low sig and resist profile might be overpowered though. We'll see.

I'm kind of hoping the Vengeance gets the same treatment. When I think of a LML kiter with a tiny sig, a great resist profile AND a bonus to MWD bloom... Need to train missile skills now :)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#918 - 2013-07-31 03:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
DEIMOS

For the Deimos we are getting rid of the mwd bonus as its outdated and odd. We are replacing it with a 5% to armor per level to give the deimos great armor ehp. Furthermore we are going to remove the 5th high slot and move it to a low making the ship have 7 low slots. to make up for lost dps we are going to switch one of the damage bonus to a 7.5.% to rate of fire which will result in a net loss of 5% of overall turret dps but we feel the loss is worth the extra low slot. Moreover we are also going to switch the falloff bonus for a tracking bonus as this will make the deimos a great blaster ship or a great rail ship.

Side note we are replacing the role bonus on all hacs to a reduction in heat damage to modules.
Role Bonus: 37.5% reduction in Heat damage to modules

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% to Medium Hybrid Turret Tracking

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% increase to Armor
7.5% to Medium Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire

Slot layout: 4H(-2), 4M(+1), 7L(+1); 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1350(+190) / 1750(-290) / 2000(-531)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1600(+225) / 255s (-80s) / 5.5/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 300(+30) / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150(-10)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Sal Awat
Emphatically Unaffiliated Industries
#919 - 2013-07-31 03:12:14 UTC
I'm not quite sure I'm totally onboard with the continued Kinetic restriction for the Cerberus. RLML's or no. It does really downplay one of the biggest strong points of missiles.

It just doesn't feel right. This seems to be the same line of thinking that has the Phoenix where it is usewise. Not that I'm anywhere near experienced enough to comment on capitals.

Hell, I'd rather just see one of the distance bonuses vanish and become an explosion radius bonus maybe? If RLML's are too much of a problem with that, have it only apply to the heavy missiles\HAMS.

I'm as much for becoming a frigates worst nightmare as the next guy; but I REALLY dislike the taste of the flavored missile damage hull bonuses.

My .02isk on the matter.

Would love to see 5 drones and a bit more speed on the eagle though. And maybe drop one of the optimal bonuses for tracking? Rails are going to be hurting for it as it is.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#920 - 2013-07-31 03:49:27 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
DEIMOS

For the Deimos we are getting rid of the mwd bonus as its outdated and odd. We are replacing it with a 5% to armor per level to give the deimos great armor ehp. Furthermore we are going to remove the 5th high slot and move it to a low making the ship have 7 low slots. to make up for lost dps we are going to switch one of the damage bonus to a 7.5.% to rate of fire which will result in a net loss of 5% of overall turret dps but we feel the loss is worth the extra low slot. Moreover we are also going to switch the falloff bonus for a tracking bonus as this will make the deimos a great blaster ship or a great rail ship.

Side note we are replacing the role bonus on all hacs to a reduction in heat damage to modules.
Role Bonus: 37.5% reduction in Heat damage to modules

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% to Medium Hybrid Turret Tracking

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% increase to Armor
7.5% to Medium Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire

Slot layout: 4H(-2), 4M(+1), 7L(+1); 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1350(+190) / 1750(-290) / 2000(-531)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1600(+225) / 255s (-80s) / 5.5/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 300(+30) / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150(-10)


I too would rather a tracking bonus than the falloff. Falloff does nothing for blasters in optimal and nothing for rails, tracking helps both hugely.

Changing role bonus to overheating bonus on all the HACS would be really cool. I think changing another high to a low will give it too many lows, especially when the Sac only has 5!!.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8