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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#781 - 2013-07-30 18:28:16 UTC
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.
Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#782 - 2013-07-30 18:29:14 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
CCP Rise: The Sacri slot layout is still a major problem in my eyes.

I am still of the opinion that removing a launcher, increasing the ROF or Damage bonus to compensate, and shifting a high to a low is the best solution. This will allow reasonable DPS, projected thanks to your changes, while retaining the utility high that makes the Sac such an awesome brawler.

I really think this would work perfectly. Remove a launcher, change damage bonus to 10%, ROF bonus to 7.5%, and we end up with the same base damage; switch a high to the low, resulting in a 5/4/6 slot layout, and BOOM, every single problem with this ship is solved.

This really, really needs to happen.


Self-quoting bump because folks seem to like this idea and dear CCP Rise should read it and comment on it, because it's a perfectly balanced solution to a questionable ship.


QFT. The poor sac is outclassed by the cerb in almost every way.

And the muninn. Maybe make it an AC version of the Zealot? IDK, right now, it's just terrible.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#783 - 2013-07-30 18:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.


It is a legendary ship, but ATM its mostly living off what it used to be.

People think that the ship is good, but in reality it isn't that strong.

Then the aBCs came and all the vaga pilots who knew this started flying talos.

The only thing its good for is killing frigs which is pretty pathetic.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#784 - 2013-07-30 18:37:58 UTC

  • Sacrilege - honestly, I like it, but I'm not convinced that the stats can't be tweaked a bit more. I'd personally like to see the final turret slot on the Sac taken off and the stats then adjusted for more armor HP/greater EHP.

  • Zealot - God that's sexy.

  • Cerberus - looks like its going in the right direction, but the sig radius might need a little tweaking since its a shield ship. I also don't think the Cerb really needs the kinetic bonus, it'd be nice to see something else there so that people will have an incentive to switch ammos around with going "BUT...BUT...MY BONUS!"

  • Eagle - the stacked optimal bonuses is still kind of :psypop:, but its going in the right direction. I'd honestly like to see the HAC bonus on the Eagle be a 5%-7.5% bonus to tracking instead. And come on, we don't need the missile slots on the thing with its specialization.

  • Deimos - I really think you guys are going in the wrong direction if you're taking armor HP off the Deimos and giving it an extra mid/shield HP. Specialize it into one thing: a DPS blaster cruiser with some decent mobility and a stiff armor tank. Either leave the utility high or keep the new mid, but don't transfer HP over to the shields at expense to armor. Or, at least, don't turn the Deimos into a poor-mans Vigilant.

  • Ishtar - meh...I'll live with that.

  • Vagabond - Okay, I'm seriously not getting the purpose here. Its all fine and dandy to say "ignore the new shiny bonus," but we're talking about making a ship class fit into the intended niche. If we're going to say the vagabond is a skirmishing, high-speed ship, give it a suitable bonus there. If we're going to throw an active tank bonus, even if its an ASB, then re-purpose it into a slightly better brawler. Don't give me cake, tell me its pie or cake depending on my mood, and then expect me to eat it. I'd like to see something here like even more speed or something to really encourage the skirmish role...and active shield booster bonus doesn't excite me at all compared to what the poor Vagabond is now.

  • Munnin - Honestly, I think the Munnin looks a little too good now. But vOv.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#785 - 2013-07-30 18:42:30 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:

  • Sacrilege - honestly, I like it, but I'm not convinced that the stats can't be tweaked a bit more. I'd personally like to see the final turret slot on the Sac taken off and the stats then adjusted for more armor HP/greater EHP.

  • Zealot - God that's sexy.

  • Cerberus - looks like its going in the right direction, but the sig radius might need a little tweaking since its a shield ship. I also don't think the Cerb really needs the kinetic bonus, it'd be nice to see something else there so that people will have an incentive to switch ammos around with going "BUT...BUT...MY BONUS!"

  • Eagle - the stacked optimal bonuses is still kind of :psypop:, but its going in the right direction. I'd honestly like to see the HAC bonus on the Eagle be a 5%-7.5% bonus to tracking instead. And come on, we don't need the missile slots on the thing with its specialization.

  • Deimos - I really think you guys are going in the wrong direction if you're taking armor HP off the Deimos and giving it an extra mid/shield HP. Specialize it into one thing: a DPS blaster cruiser with some decent mobility and a stiff armor tank. Either leave the utility high or keep the new mid, but don't transfer HP over to the shields at expense to armor. Or, at least, don't turn the Deimos into a poor-mans Vigilant.

  • Ishtar - meh...I'll live with that.

  • Vagabond - Okay, I'm seriously not getting the purpose here. Its all fine and dandy to say "ignore the new shiny bonus," but we're talking about making a ship class fit into the intended niche. If we're going to say the vagabond is a skirmishing, high-speed ship, give it a suitable bonus there. If we're going to throw an active tank bonus, even if its an ASB, then re-purpose it into a slightly better brawler. Don't give me cake, tell me its pie or cake depending on my mood, and then expect me to eat it. I'd like to see something here like even more speed or something to really encourage the skirmish role...and active shield booster bonus doesn't excite me at all compared to what the poor Vagabond is now.

  • Munnin - Honestly, I think the Munnin looks a little too good now. But vOv.


Agree with everything but the Munnin. Ishtar is strong. :P
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#786 - 2013-07-30 18:43:39 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:

  • Munnin - Honestly, I think the Munnin looks a little too good now. But vOv.



Two words: Tornado Fleet.

Don't say sig resolution and tracking because I have one word for that: Huginns (webs & paints, problem solved)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#787 - 2013-07-30 18:44:08 UTC
I think the new Ishtar changes look pretty great.

They do two things that I really like: the sentry range and tracking bonus allows Ishtar pilots to use sentries as a platform without incurring crippling fitting needs, and the CPU bump gives Ishtar pilots much more room to craft a functional fit with those CPU-hungry drone modules/rigs.
Boss McNab
Tactical Chaos Corp
#788 - 2013-07-30 18:59:07 UTC
Michael J Caboose wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
CCP Rise: The Sacri slot layout is still a major problem in my eyes.

I am still of the opinion that removing a launcher, increasing the ROF or Damage bonus to compensate, and shifting a high to a low is the best solution. This will allow reasonable DPS, projected thanks to your changes, while retaining the utility high that makes the Sac such an awesome brawler.

I really think this would work perfectly. Remove a launcher, change damage bonus to 10%, ROF bonus to 7.5%, and we end up with the same base damage; switch a high to the low, resulting in a 5/4/6 slot layout, and BOOM, every single problem with this ship is solved.

This really, really needs to happen.


Self-quoting bump because folks seem to like this idea and dear CCP Rise should read it and comment on it, because it's a perfectly balanced solution to a questionable ship.


QFT. The poor sac is outclassed by the cerb in almost every way.

And the muninn. Maybe make it an AC version of the Zealot? IDK, right now, it's just terrible.


so guys do we just keep reposting this idea until they do it? who wants to take first shift on making sure its getting reposted?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#789 - 2013-07-30 18:59:32 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#790 - 2013-07-30 19:00:24 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:

  • Munnin - Honestly, I think the Munnin looks a little too good now. But vOv.



Two words: Tornado Fleet.

Don't say sig resolution and tracking because I have one word for that: Huginns (webs & paints, problem solved)



That is more a matter of.. Attack BC ****** up the balance in the game completely. They hurt BAttlehip and HACs roles too much.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#791 - 2013-07-30 19:01:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

mama guru
Yazatas.
#792 - 2013-07-30 19:03:07 UTC
Sacrilege and Ishtar changes are great. 50% missile velocity, resist bonus and a 50m3 dronebay means that the Zealot will see a potential challenger as the best AHAC in the Sacrilege. The Ishtar fittings and dual drone bonuses was nice, drone bay bonus had to go. If you stick to small guns fitting the Ishtar should not be hard, DCU's are also less of a pain to fit.

Fitting + Ewar resillience and Cap was pretty much everything hacs needed.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#793 - 2013-07-30 19:04:10 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


Everything has.

I'd rather see less ASBs, I loved the old shield tanking method. But CCP is encouraging it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#794 - 2013-07-30 19:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Diesel47 wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


Everything has.

I'd rather see less ASBs, I loved the old shield tanking method. But CCP is encouraging it.


Asb's are ********. (Really CCP, thats a censored word? wtf? Fine ASB's are Idiotic..)

Would like to see them changed to have the same mechanics as AAR's.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#795 - 2013-07-30 19:07:28 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


Pretty sure that's not in any way true.

Vaga is still going to be a mediocre ship if the current set of changes go through.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#796 - 2013-07-30 19:07:44 UTC
I think if you are trying to make these ships really worthwhile in straight combat while they have competition from BCs, ABCs, T3 cruisers, T1 cruisers, Navy cruisers, Pirate Cruisers, BSs and CSs then you are fighting a really hard battle just to jam yet another class of vessels into a massively overcrowded marketplace.

T2 is supposed to be about specialisation. Most, if not all, other T2 ships have a clear and undeniable field of specialisation. When a massive list of ship classes already serve in the field of simple "tank and gank" it seems bizzarre that you would not pull the only T2 class competing in that field and move it out of the crowd a little.

Give them an actual role. EHP/DPS is already oversubscribed. Given they have to remain in the crowded EHP/DPS bracket to some degree, you have to give them a role bonus that differentiates them properly and not just something that looks like it was stolen from a T3 subsystem.

Make them skirmishers and give them a significantly improved ability to disengage.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#797 - 2013-07-30 19:10:08 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
The Vaga is getting buffed at nearly everything and people are complaining about how worthless it is now; I remain confused.



nearly everything what?


He is being buffed on a signle thing.. on a scenario that no vaga pilot stick its vaga ever...


Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...


Everything has.

I'd rather see less ASBs, I loved the old shield tanking method. But CCP is encouraging it.


Asb's are ********. (Really CCP, thats a censored word? wtf? Fine ASB's are Idiotic..)

Would like to see them changed to have the same mechanics as AAR's.


I'd love to see them just removed forever, and then have normal shield boosters become good.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#798 - 2013-07-30 19:10:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The dumbest things I have seen so far is you. Ships should never be balanced on how much they cost ever because no matter how much that cost is we can afford it.




Except we find that ships aren't used as evidenced by your own alliance decline to use tempest fis due to cost and as indicated below using regular megas instead of the better navy megas that cost more.

Dumb is when people say cost is not a balancing factor.



baltec1 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Did goons use a navy megathron doctrine or a regular megathron doctrine, in fountain? Are regular megas better than the navy megas?

Goons always post to nerf any ships that can't easilly be flown by noobs because getting noobs into large blobs is how they win.


Navy mega are better than normal mega at most things but not by a lot.

Also you should look up our cruiser doctrines, the celestis is a very well like ship indeed. Easy to fly ships are very much wanted by the CFC. We aim out nerf requests towards things that need the bat for the wellbeing of the whole game. Why else would we demand tech nerfed?



CFC are always trying to nerf high sp and high cost ships. Just like when some cfc noob flew his rifter directly at a titan, got blapped, and cried that titans be nerfed.


Goons can't keep saying they are out to ruin the game for everyone but goons, and then hope to have credibility when they say the changes they want are not just good for goons but for the game as a whole.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#799 - 2013-07-30 19:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Baali Tekitsu
Stupid Idea: EvE is lacking a dedicated Cyno boat. Have them a second role bonus "500% to HP while cynosural field generator is active". This would make them pretty unique and give them a special role.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#800 - 2013-07-30 19:11:39 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
I think if you are trying to make these ships really worthwhile in straight combat while they have competition from BCs, ABCs, T3 cruisers, T1 cruisers, Navy cruisers, Pirate Cruisers, BSs and CSs then you are fighting a really hard battle just to jam yet another class of vessels into a massively overcrowded marketplace.

T2 is supposed to be about specialisation. Most, if not all, other T2 ships have a clear and undeniable field of specialisation. When a massive list of ship classes already serve in the field of simple "tank and gank" it seems bizzarre that you would not pull the only T2 class competing in that field and move it out of the crowd a little.

Give them an actual role. EHP/DPS is already oversubscribed. Given they have to remain in the crowded EHP/DPS bracket to some degree, you have to give them a role bonus that differentiates them properly and not just something that looks like it was stolen from a T3 subsystem.

Make them skirmishers and give them a significantly improved ability to disengage.


I think they should all be made into small gang PvP powerhouses, somehow balanced so they don't really scale well into blobs (sorry AHACS).

Let the blobs fly their T1 stuff, T2 should be geared towards the professionals.

But this will never happen.