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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#361 - 2013-07-29 20:10:55 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


/facepalm


and do not forget people this made it threw 2 rounds of csm feedback... boy do i miss last years csm.


what i find odd about HM's and HAM'S is that HM furies do more dps than HAM javelins do .. whats up with that?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#362 - 2013-07-29 20:14:41 UTC
Sacrilege would be perfect if you moved the utility high to a low.

Deimos needs some more hitpoints. Thanks to natively poorer Gellente t2 resists it has a fairly weak AHAC tank even if you try.

Muninn is clearly designed for using artillery yet it has a hard time fitting them, Maybe change the 10% optimal to a 5% optimal and falloff per level. That or give it a bit more fitting space, tho I think that could be a bad idea.

Other than those things I like them.

Also just for the sake of bringing it up, the 2 rigs slots. Are there any plans on changing this? Because rigs as they stand play a HUGE part in how a ship preforms and because T2 ships are only able to fit 2 they have a harder time being better than their t1 counterparts and get horribly shafted when it comes to T3. Just wanted to bring this to your attention and let you think on it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#363 - 2013-07-29 20:18:45 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


/facepalm


and do not forget people this made it threw 2 rounds of csm feedback... boy do i miss last years csm.


what i find odd about HM's and HAM'S is that HM furies do more dps than HAM javelins do .. whats up with that?


Because they should.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2013-07-29 20:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuxedo Catfish
MeBiatch wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
there is a camp that wants the Deimos to be this awesome zippy Blaster Platform ship....
I don't know why we'd want a Gallente ship to reflect the Gallente play style of in-your-face with blasters.... What?


totally right? silly gal for actually wanting a in your face blaster setup.Roll


The problem is the Gallente design model is fundamentally broken; big slow armor tanks and blasters with no range. It's a combination of bad and bad with no counterbalance, especially for cruiser-sized ships; battleships are always slow regardless of how they're fit (and have MJDs, which are a wonderful way around this problem), while frigates can get away with just fitting a damage control and perhaps some other resist mods.

Making armor faster isn't a good choice since it's the defining weakness of an armor tank, and when you start adding range to blasters you start looking suspiciously like Minmatar. The Talos is as good as it is, perhaps even overpowered, because it's un-Gallente: it has both range and speed.

The way I see it, there are two options: either redesign the Gallente HACs to have shield tanks with a decisive speed advantage and enough EHP to brawl at point blank range -- and I mean actually enough, not like the Thorax where shields + blasters means you'll explode instantly -- or leave them armor-tanked, but let them track well enough for railguns + antimatter to be at least somewhat competetive with Scorch and Barrage.

(To CCP's credit, I think the proposed Ishtar changes have already achieved this balance with drones, which just leaves the Deimos.)

I prefer the latter solution since I think ultra-fast shield-tanked blaster ships would be a great direction to take the Serpentis ship line, but that's just me.
flind
The Dozen
#365 - 2013-07-29 20:22:51 UTC
RIP Sacra. Useless +25% to missile speed and loses its awesome capa bonus - yeah, she was imba before so CCP decided to nerf her.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#366 - 2013-07-29 20:26:38 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
the sac still sucks, it either dosnt have enough tank or not enough dps.

move the utility high to an extra low.

love this ship, but you are not fixing it enough to make it worth flying


The last tunes to the Sacrilege are perfect. No touching it anymore pls.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Boss McNab
Tactical Chaos Corp
#367 - 2013-07-29 20:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Boss McNab
CCP RISE & CCP FOZZIE,

I hope we will being seeing a third round revision thread before you guys launch it. that is, unless you plan on having to balance them again in the next year or two. You should really take the time, listen to all the great forum feed back, and make a purpose for all these ships. Yes the CSM is great but you have hundreds of players giving you great feed back. Please use it, and listen to what the majority is telling you, even if you individually or a few CSM`s want to to something different. Please take into account you have a whole community of players that have put alot of work it to helping you build amazing T2 cruiser class as well.

I am very disappointed, and I feel that the forums ideas aren`t been looked into enough. Despite so many people not liking the ``one size fits all`` 50% reduction to MWD sig radius bonus, you have kept it.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#368 - 2013-07-29 20:28:23 UTC
Diemos is still a flying coffin with the words (I brought it on the field and I have blasters, kill me please) written on it.

Yaay!!!!

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#369 - 2013-07-29 20:31:42 UTC
flind wrote:
RIP Sacra. Useless +25% to missile speed and loses its awesome capa bonus - yeah, she was imba before so CCP decided to nerf her.


Yeah buffer tanking and firing missiles requires so much cap.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#370 - 2013-07-29 20:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
there is a camp that wants the Deimos to be this awesome zippy Blaster Platform ship....
I don't know why we'd want a Gallente ship to reflect the Gallente play style of in-your-face with blasters.... What?


totally right? silly gal for actually wanting a in your face blaster setup.Roll


The problem is the Gallente design model is fundamentally broken; big slow armor tanks and blasters with no range. It's a combination of bad and bad with no counterbalance, especially for cruiser-sized ships; battleships are always slow regardless of how they're fit (and have MJDs, which are a wonderful way around this problem), while frigates can get away with just fitting a damage control and perhaps some other resist mods.

Making armor faster isn't a good choice since it's the defining weakness of an armor tank, and when you start adding range to blasters you start looking suspiciously like Minmatar. The Talos is as good as it is, perhaps even overpowered, because it's un-Gallente: it has both range and speed.

The way I see it, there are two options: either redesign the Gallente HACs to have shield tanks with a decisive speed advantage and enough EHP to brawl at point blank range -- and I mean actually enough, not like the Thorax where shields + blasters means you'll explode instantly -- or leave them armor-tanked, but let them track well enough for railguns + antimatter to be at least somewhat competetive with Scorch and Barrage.

(To CCP's credit, I think the proposed Ishtar changes have already achieved this balance with drones, which just leaves the Deimos.)

I prefer the latter solution since I think ultra-fast shield-tanked blaster ships would be a great direction to take the Serpentis ship line, but that's just me.


I agree with the gallente armour and blasters combo not making sense it turns the mega into a fairly average speed battleship at best not very quick and attack like when the Hype goes quicker...
I was disappointed the mega lost the shield option at least give the deimos the mobility and stronger projection to make it a mini but more resilient Talos... more shield tank aswell would help
Serpentis make more sense as combat armour tanky ships with their web bonus switch the falloff on them for tracking like the vindi has.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2013-07-29 20:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuxedo Catfish
Harvey James wrote:

I agree with the gallente armour and blasters combo not making sense it turns the mega into a fairly average speed battleship at best not very quick and attack like when the Hype goes quicker...
I was disappointed the mega lost the shield option at least give the deimos the mobility and stronger projection to make it a mini but more resilient Talos... more shield tank aswell would help
Serpentis make more sense as combat armour tanky ships with their web bonus switch the falloff on them for tracking like the vindi has.


Yeah, as I said I'd be happy with either. Doing it this way means Gallente get to keep their most iconic weapon system, plus it has a nice symmetry to it -- Amarr are all armor, Caldari are all shields, Minmatar and Gallente are hybrids.

Mind you, I think the Megathron changes are one of the best decisions the tiericide devs have made -- but that might just be because they made it good enough to be a nullsec fleet doctrine ship again, after all these years.

EDIT: To clarify, though -- the Deimos needs either mobility or projection. NOT both.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#372 - 2013-07-29 20:38:19 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

I agree with the gallente armour and blasters combo not making sense it turns the mega into a fairly average speed battleship at best not very quick and attack like when the Hype goes quicker...
I was disappointed the mega lost the shield option at least give the deimos the mobility and stronger projection to make it a mini but more resilient Talos... more shield tank aswell would help
Serpentis make more sense as combat armour tanky ships with their web bonus switch the falloff on them for tracking like the vindi has.


You're everything wrong with this game.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#373 - 2013-07-29 20:40:30 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

I agree with the gallente armour and blasters combo not making sense it turns the mega into a fairly average speed battleship at best not very quick and attack like when the Hype goes quicker...
I was disappointed the mega lost the shield option at least give the deimos the mobility and stronger projection to make it a mini but more resilient Talos... more shield tank aswell would help
Serpentis make more sense as combat armour tanky ships with their web bonus switch the falloff on them for tracking like the vindi has.


You're everything wrong with this game.


no you are :P .... you and you're well detailed statements

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#374 - 2013-07-29 20:42:16 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

I agree with the gallente armour and blasters combo not making sense it turns the mega into a fairly average speed battleship at best not very quick and attack like when the Hype goes quicker...
I was disappointed the mega lost the shield option at least give the deimos the mobility and stronger projection to make it a mini but more resilient Talos... more shield tank aswell would help
Serpentis make more sense as combat armour tanky ships with their web bonus switch the falloff on them for tracking like the vindi has.


You're everything wrong with this game.


no you are :P .... you and your well detailed statements



Fixed.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#375 - 2013-07-29 20:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
What's with all the people saying Deimos isn't meant as a blaster platform?

I'll quote the in-game description...

Quote:
Name: Deimos
Hull: Thorax Class
Role: Heavy Assault Cruiser

Sharing more tactical elements with smaller vessels than with its size-class counterparts, the Deimos represents the final word in up-close-and-personal cruiser combat. Venture too close to this one, and swift death is your only guarantee.

Developer: Duvolle Labs

Rumor has it Duvolle was contracted by parties unknown to create the ultimate close-range blaster cruiser. In this their engineers and designers haven't failed; but the identity of the company's client remains to be discovered.

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level

Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level


My favorite part is this one...

Quote:
In this their engineers and designers haven't failed


What? They didn't? Well, I guess to be fair to those fictional engineers, they didn't have this post to read when they were designing this ship.
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2013-07-29 20:47:00 UTC
While I still think that a falloff + tracking combination wouldn't be as unreasonable as CCP Rise claims, I wouldn't mind trading the falloff for tracking either. "Close range blaster platform" and all that. But you should still replace the MWD capacitor bonus with something, because it's awful.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#377 - 2013-07-29 20:47:50 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
What's with all the people saying Deimos isn't meant as a blaster platform?

I'll quote the in-game description...

Quote:
Name: Deimos
Hull: Thorax Class
Role: Heavy Assault Cruiser

Sharing more tactical elements with smaller vessels than with its size-class counterparts, the Deimos represents the final word in up-close-and-personal cruiser combat. Venture too close to this one, and swift death is your only guarantee.

Developer: Duvolle Labs

Rumor has it Duvolle was contracted by parties unknown to create the ultimate close-range blaster cruiser. In this their engineers and designers haven't failed; but the identity of the company's client remains to be discovered.

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level

Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level


My favorite part is this one...

Quote:
In this their engineers and designers haven't failed


What? They didn't? Well, I guess to be fair to those fictional engineers, they didn't have this post to read when they were designing this ship.


I suspect the Thorax or exqueror navy issue or the brutix navy issue even is better up close and personal than the deimos the falloff bonus and no tracking combined with unimpressive dps and lack of tank suggests a blaster kiter makes more sense but RISE doesn't seem to care much

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#378 - 2013-07-29 20:52:27 UTC
I'd perfer the diemost get either A, more dps by trading a damage bonus for a Rof one or B, an armor tanking one over the microwarpdrive bonus, whether it's a resist, armor amount, or armor repair bonus, it'll still be useful. Both would be preferred for me, but probably Op.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2013-07-29 20:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
CCP Rise: The Sacri slot layout is still a major problem in my eyes.

I am still of the opinion that removing a launcher, increasing the ROF or Damage bonus to compensate, and shifting a high to a low is the best solution. This will allow reasonable DPS, projected thanks to your changes, while retaining the utility high that makes the Sac such an awesome brawler.

I really think this would work perfectly. Remove a launcher, change damage bonus to 10%, ROF bonus to 7.5%, and we end up with the same base damage; switch a high to the low, resulting in a 5/4/6 slot layout, and BOOM, every single problem with this ship is solved.

This really, really needs to happen.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#380 - 2013-07-29 20:58:26 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
These things are tanking beasts that cannot be easily disrupted. And they will have same or more dps than T1 cruiser variants.

They probably need to be even slower - halfway between T1 cruisers and T1 BCs. Fast enough to easily take on BCs and BSs, but slow enough to not catch and kill T1 cruiser hulls. (T1 cruisers need to have a clear mobility advantage on these HACs.).
So... Bad...

Ishkur 287 m/s: Tristan 325 m/s: Ratio 0.88
Ishtar 195 m/s: Vexor 205 m/s: Ratio 0.95

Yes, the slowness of AFs is something of an issue.

Not really, they (AFs) are borderline OP against other T1 frigates - but their slowness gives T1 frigates an area to be competitive. AFs (and HACs) should shine in logi situations - especially against ship hulls that are larger than they are. AFs do that really well, and their slowness makes sure they do not completely crush the engagement envelope of other frigates.





I think when we see people actually using hacs we can then decide that they need their speed nerfed. But the fact that they cost a 150 mill more than t1 should provide them with some additional benefit. Otherwise they will remain in the hangar.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815