These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#321 - 2013-07-29 18:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Nikuno wrote:
I see why you dropped the Diemos hp, it keeps everything around the 5k hp mark (before resists etc), except the vaga which has speed for tank; but with the vaga you've shown that you consider individual usage when looking at hp.

I fail to see why this fell by the wayside with the Diemos hp drop, it hardly seems justified given the closer range kill-or-be-killed combat style the ship supports. I think this alone will help kill the Diemos as a close range brawler. If that's the intention then fair enough, the rail change may accomodate this, but it is a favourite playstyle and I'll be sad to see it fade a little more into the background with such an iconic ship.

I've been wondering how a bonus to reduce sig radius significantly would pan out for it, or perhaps a AB speed bonus (which would make for some interesting dual prop fits).

Also, I really like the Eagle (always have) but I'm still a bit concerned about it. I guess we'll have to see how the rail buffs affect it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#322 - 2013-07-29 18:49:11 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Dude AMMAR HAVE SHIELD AND ARMOR improved resists. As MINAMTARE and ANY race!! The bonus is applied in BOTH layers!!!!


I WAS going to come back at you with facts and figures about how you were clearly wrong and my e-peen was bigger than yours.

Sadly, twas not the case and I see the errors of my ways. I will hang my head in shame for the rest of the afternoon.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#323 - 2013-07-29 18:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
But looking at all this..

What is the point of the HAC's?

What role do they serve? Because they seem to be expensive mini bc's with high res.. and that just isn't very interesting.

(Edit: I think a more interesting approach would be to give them some extreme weapon system bonuses while giving them some short comings in some other ways.. Just.. something other then this.. Its just so ******* MEH)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2013-07-29 18:55:42 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
But looking at all this..

What is the point of the HAC's?

What role do they serve? Because they seem to be expensive mini bc's with high res.. and that just isn't very interesting.

Lets not forget that they only have 1/2 the EHP of a BC though.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#325 - 2013-07-29 18:56:32 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
But looking at all this..

What is the point of the HAC's?

What role do they serve? Because they seem to be expensive mini bc's with high res.. and that just isn't very interesting.

Lets not forget that they only have 1/2 the EHP of a BC though.


Note the "mini"

I guess i should have said BAD mini bc's

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#326 - 2013-07-29 19:00:21 UTC
What exactly is the reasoning behind nerfing the Deimos's armor and hull? I mean, it wasn't exactly a brick in the first place. We call it the Diemost for a reason. Also, removing the utility high that was mostly used for a Nos to run a repper in favor of a mid, I'm torn about. I guess it depends on whether that extra 60 powergrid is going to be enough for a cap booster with bigger guns, which I don't think it will at first glance. I'll do the math later. The changes seem not only underwhelming but almost brutal to the Deimos. It's almost pigeon holed now into buffer shield tanking with medium rails. Was it the intent to push it towards kiting rather than brawling?
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#327 - 2013-07-29 19:07:14 UTC
Dave PSI wrote:
Dear CCP Rise,
could you explain your thoughts on the Eagle?
Like i said before it is the worst Hac since years. The nearly only reason it get sold in Jita is because it get reprozessed (i probably reprozessed 500+ myself, so i know what i am talking about) when the material prices change.

What did you dramatically changed, so that people will now begin to use them?
Why does it not have a second damage bonus, like every other hac?
If you are sniping, why would you use an Eagle instead of a Zealot or a Minunn?

This ship needs much more loving or nobody will ever use it.


This, and not only thins, but for the Muninn aswell! What did you really do to these ships to make them usefull? fixing the Cerb, Ishtar, Sac, And Vaga, but forget the actualy 2 least used hacs of them all.
Boss McNab
Tactical Chaos Corp
#328 - 2013-07-29 19:07:53 UTC
Just a few things I noticed:


THE SACRILIGE: becuase you added the missle velocity bonus it seems like it will primarily do almost do the same job as a zealot but with selectable damge but at a lower DPS..

I still dont understand why you lowered its EHP...

wouldn`t it be better with some type of damage application bonus? explosion velocity or radius, 4%bonus to missle damage. i dunno.


The DEIMOS:
Still seems a little behind the rest, with no way to actually apply its damge.


THE CERBERUS: though i dont like the bonus to kenetic damage i used its a tough one to work around, what about a 4% bonus to all missle damage types.


THE ISHTAR: WHY YOU NO ADD EXTRA LOW SLOT :( we are now forced to shield tank the ishatar and the GILA already does that soo well. THE BONUSes are a little odd as well.


LIKE these ships should all have their own little niche,
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#329 - 2013-07-29 19:08:34 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Thank you for giving a bonus to a ship (vagabond) when we minmatar players said that it wasn't needed and we would like more to remain a skirmish ship, basically saying "hey guys you can still fly and dont use the bonus" is completely ******** and basically telling us to f*** off .

I find it funny also that you want us to shield tank and be awesome with only 4 meds , i mean 2 are used for a MWD and the booster that leaves us with what 2 other mids to what ? 1 point and another slot to put a tank? Or you want us to dual tank using our 5 lows?

calm down. they rolled the other bonuses into the hull. Nothing has really changed except a boost in speed and reduced MWD sig, which is really good. If you didnt use shield boosters before then it doesnt even matter. 1 MWD 2 extenders and 1 point and shes good to go, just like always. and its strength has always been speed, so trying to say you want more tank is changing its role.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#330 - 2013-07-29 19:11:43 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Dave PSI wrote:
Dear CCP Rise,
could you explain your thoughts on the Eagle?
Like i said before it is the worst Hac since years. The nearly only reason it get sold in Jita is because it get reprozessed (i probably reprozessed 500+ myself, so i know what i am talking about) when the material prices change.

What did you dramatically changed, so that people will now begin to use them?
Why does it not have a second damage bonus, like every other hac?
If you are sniping, why would you use an Eagle instead of a Zealot or a Minunn?

This ship needs much more loving or nobody will ever use it.


This, and not only thins, but for the Muninn aswell! What did you really do to these ships to make them usefull? fixing the Cerb, Ishtar, Sac, And Vaga, but forget the actualy 2 least used hacs of them all.

check the blog on medium rails, beams, and arties. theyre all getting a boost. especially rails (+30%) dps
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#331 - 2013-07-29 19:14:07 UTC
the eagle and the munnin really need thaty targeting range bonus. not gonna need the extra sebo to go out to max range
Arushia
Nova Labs
#332 - 2013-07-29 19:15:20 UTC
I like the range bonus on the Sacrilege, and finally the Ishtar gets a decent CPU.

I still think both of them could swap a mid for a low though.
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#333 - 2013-07-29 19:16:48 UTC
still not happy you're pidgeon holing the deimos into a shield tanked kiter with 250mm rails. on the up side, at least it'll see some action after collecting dust in my hangar for years.

no chance of at least keeping the EHP where it is?

navy exeq still outperforms it in the brawler role near as I can tell.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#334 - 2013-07-29 19:22:46 UTC
These things are tanking beasts that cannot be easily disrupted. And they will have same or more dps than T1 cruiser variants.

They probably need to be even slower - halfway between T1 cruisers and T1 BCs. Fast enough to easily take on BCs and BSs, but slow enough to not catch and kill T1 cruiser hulls. (T1 cruisers need to have a clear mobility advantage on these HACs.).
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#335 - 2013-07-29 19:24:00 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
I see why you dropped the Diemos hp, it keeps everything around the 5k hp mark (before resists etc), except the vaga which has speed for tank; but with the vaga you've shown that you consider individual usage when looking at hp.

I fail to see why this fell by the wayside with the Diemos hp drop, it hardly seems justified given the closer range kill-or-be-killed combat style the ship supports. I think this alone will help kill the Diemos as a close range brawler. If that's the intention then fair enough, the rail change may accomodate this, but it is a favourite playstyle and I'll be sad to see it fade a little more into the background with such an iconic ship.
It's quite obvious that CCP is shifting these ships into kiting roles (since we all know how much Gallentean playstyle is to kite things around), ushered in by the medium turrets buff, and evidenced by the armor/hull changes going to shield, increased speed, MWD sig bloom reduction, addition of midslots, etc. What CCP is missing is that people still won't fly these overpriced HACs when a T1 does the same paper tank/high dps builds and can also kite. It's sad that these ships are becoming a mish-mash of the same with the push toward long-range weapons systems and MWD uses. I guess T3s will still be the go-to for brawling setups, and when they get a treatment, I'm sure we'll use BCs again.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
You could devote the entire ship to a sniper role, but give it cannot clean kill its targets it needs to survive at range ... introduce medium micro jump drives and give the Eagle bonuses for its use - take away the shield % bonus or one of the optimal bonuses
The true gist here is that HACs should have been given a fitting bonus so they could use MJDs. Giving them MJDs would allow for both sniper and brawler setups to thrive, with each getting a use to make- or collapse-range. What else this unique bonus would allow for is a ship that is truly unique and different from its T1, BC, T3 counterparts. As much as a Thorax would like to, it could never use an MJD. It would have been nice to have the option on the Diemost so it could have had some compelling reason to pay so much more for such a miniscule performance bonus.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#336 - 2013-07-29 19:25:45 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
These things are tanking beasts that cannot be easily disrupted. And they will have same or more dps than T1 cruiser variants.

They probably need to be even slower - halfway between T1 cruisers and T1 BCs. Fast enough to easily take on BCs and BSs, but slow enough to not catch and kill T1 cruiser hulls. (T1 cruisers need to have a clear mobility advantage on these HACs.).




So...

Bad...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#337 - 2013-07-29 19:26:21 UTC
I'm happy with the new Cerberus.

Thank you.
Namamai
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2013-07-29 19:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Namamai
I still don't dig it. Breaking it down by change:

The capacitor changes are certainly nice, but a lot of the HACs didn't have problems with capacitor:

  • Sacrilege and Muninn don't need cap for their guns
  • Almost all mainstream Zealot fits are AB fits and were capstable before the changes
  • Deimos was cap-stable before the changes
  • The Vagabond needed to pulse the MWD anyways to effectively deal damage.

(And on a side note, it still doesn't help against ships facing neuts. Especially with the recent Armageddon buffs, neuts are becoming more common on the battlefield again, and three HACs have lost their option highs. The only real beneficiaries of the capacitor change are the Cerberus, and people using the Vagabond in a non-DPS heavy tackling role.)

The lock ranges are somewhat nice, if only because it means that the Beam Zealot no longer needs a sebo. But otherwise, they're non-contributory. At best, it gives them a tiny bit more resilience versus damps... but not enough. Even with the Cerberus and its absurd 118km lock range (130km in fleet), it only takes one damp to drop it to 49km, and two for 24km.

Now, breaking it down by ship:

  • Sacrilege: My thoughts on it largely remain the same as in the first pass. It's good -- probably the one HAC that benefited most from the first round of changes -- and its capacitor is still amazingly good for a ship with no cap-based weapons. Having a Caracal's missile range just makes it that much better. If all the HACs were this nice post-patch, I'd be happy.

  • Zealot: While the changes to it are nice, it still has the same problems as it did after the first pass:

    • -- Soloers are going to skip it due to no drones, no option high, and only 3 mid slots
    -- 200-man fleets are going to prefer Legions due to the superior tank and sensor strength
    -- Small gang fleets are still going to use it in the same fit as before

    About the only benefit from the second round of changes is that AB HPL zealots are now capstable. But, frankly, they're an AB boat and only have one mid-slot free, so they should be. Really, if I could ask for one change to the Zealot, it'd be to bump its base power grid up to 1260 (+80). This would address the fact that every PvP armor Zealot fit being used today requires at least one ACR.

  • Cerberus: The improved capacitor eliminates several of my concerns from the previous round -- at least it can kite now. The extra grid is also a HUGE welcome: a HAM fit with two LSEs is now quite easy.

    • It is still a very thinly tanked hull -- 44k EHP with four tank mods and two tank rigs -- and I suspect that both small and large gangs will continue to prefer the Tengu for its far superior tank. However, I think soloers will now love this ship. It might make a good close skirmisher at very small gang sizes. Perhaps, bump up the base shields a bit more?

  • Eagle: Continues to be junk. The extra grid and capacitor is welcome, but the ship continues to be pigeonholed into a single role: that of the far skirmisher, where it competes with the Tornado/Naga/Talos and the Muninn.

    • Despite the improvements in power grid, you still need either an ACR or an RCU2 to fit a full rack of railguns and two LSEs, so in the end, the changes only afford us fitting a DCU instead of a PDS. We still end up in the same space we were before: it's a Naga competitor with twice the cost, half the DPS, half the alpha, but triple the tank.

    About the only argument I can make for it now is that with Loki links it might be small enough to ignore bombing runs... which is not a great selling point. I am not comfortable with a hull that is only interesting for a single role in a single fleet comp, especially when its nearest competitors require half the SP investment and half the cost. (And whose cost doesn't fluctuate with nullsec politics.)

  • Deimos: Still problematic. The increased grid is a welcome gift, as it at least allows you to fit MWD+1600+ions smoothly. However, I think the Deimos is still in search of a role.

    • Armor setups continue to suffer from the loss of the option high -- the lack of offensive cap warfare (neut) makes it less appealing to gangs than before, and the lack of defensive cap warfare (nos) makes it less useful to soloers. Shield setups continue to suffer from the lack of tracking -- you can't track with rails on TQ today, and you track worse with the new medium rails. Even blaster Deimoses today need to be careful with tracking; Null and Void generally can't be used while orbiting.

    With the new capacitor changes, the MWD cap bonus makes even less sense. The ship was already cap stable while running MWD+tackle+guns before; it's even more so now. This makes me reluctant to put injectors in the new fourth mid, because they serve purely as an anti-neut option; before, I could use a nosferatu for anti-neut.

    Why not replace the MWD cap bonus with a weak (3-5%) tracking bonus? This would make shield rail Deimoses viable as a slower, harder-hitting alternative to Vagabond/Cerberus, and simultaneously improve the armor Deimos' flexibility by allowing it to use Void/Null ammo effectively.



(continued in next post)
Namamai
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2013-07-29 19:31:15 UTC
(continued from previous post)

  • Ishtar: The gentle nerf to sentry drone ranges isn't a huge deal -- it's about a 5km loss on Gardes. The extra grid and CPU is certainly pleasant -- you can pack on a T2 plate now comfortably.

    • However, the bonuses don't make a ton of sense to me; it strikes me as a ship whose bonuses are entirely dependent on usage. For people using the Ishtar with heavies (especially the so-called "AFKtar" PvE fits), there is no benefit to them training the HAC skill past one. People using sentries, on the other hand, must train it to 5. It's a strange dichotomy, and one that's not easily explained.

    What I would have preferred to see is tying all drone bonuses to HAC, and put the drone control range bonus on Gallente Cruiser. Alternately, leave the Ishtar's bonuses focused on sentries, and give the Gila some bonuses focused on Heavies.

  • Muninn: As above, so below. It wasn't really making use of its cap, so the cap changes don't change anything; it wasn't threatened by ECM, so the sensor strength changes don't change anything. The previous round changed almost nothing about this ship, either.

  • Vagabond: Still subpar.

    • The extra capacitor is nice, certainly (~8min runtime now for MWD+point), and I admit that the sig reduction is going to reduce its incoming DPS. Bringing it's speed back up is nice too. But, I still firmly believe that the shield tank bonus is not useful.

    Even if we take Rise's example of LASB+LSE, there's two fundamental concerns:

    First, you have to run the LASB for at least five cycles in order to have the same aggregate HP as 2x LSE, and it's an effective tank of 400dps. Meanwhile, you have 20k EHP of total buffer, 15k of which is in the shields. This yields the following breakdown:

    • < 400dps incoming: You stay alive, up until you run out of cap boosters
    • 400-700dps incoming: You will eventually die (especially when you run out of boosters), but it'll be better than 2x LSE
    • > 700dps incoming: You'll die faster than you would have with 2x LSE.

    Lots of ships put out that much these days: any of the Tier3 BCs, any BS, and most of the Vagabond's HAC brethren.

    And, what do we give up in order to fit that? The extra CPU that's been added to the Vagabond is nice, but CPU hasn't been its problem -- it's grid. The Vagabond has always been very tight on grid, and a LASB+LSE fit makes it worse. In order to make it fit, you have to do one of three painful choices:

    • Use a 3% grid implant (i.e. no snakes)
    • Use an ACR rig (i.e. you give up either a polycarb or a resist rig)
    • Downgrade two of your five guns from 220mms to Dual 180mms.

    It's just not a good tradeoff.

    I'm glad that you guys acknowledged that the desirability (or lack thereof) of the Vagabond is directly tied to the desirability of the Cynabal. However, "the Cynabal is getting nerfed Soon (TM)" doesn't really help us now.
    At best, all it means is: "Market manipulators should stockpile Vagabonds, even though they're ****, because eventually they'll become a one-eyed king in a land of blind men."
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#340 - 2013-07-29 19:32:36 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
there is a camp that wants the Deimos to be this awesome zippy Blaster Platform ship....
I don't know why we'd want a Gallente ship to reflect the Gallente play style of in-your-face with blasters.... What?

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<