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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-07-29 15:43:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[b]VAGABOND

...
The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.



Good luck with that. Cynabal and vaga are almost identical ships that are currently stuck in the same exact role. The vaga, due to its reisists, was the one that could have more easilly broke out of the mold to allow it a brawler role. Now cynabals are obsolete until they are buffed to make vagas obsolete. If you try to buff cynabals to the point they can break out of that role they will just be op.

Other than that these ships are looking really good. Finally they are worth the isk. Yes even the vaga now that it is a better cynabal for less isk.



That could have been easily solved by moving a vaga low slot into mid slot with the shield boost bonus. Would make it the most brawlish. Also increase vagabond agility a bit (improve).


Nerf cynabal agility a tiny bit, and can even increase a bit its max speed.

One becomes the closer range more resilient and the other keeps the "stay very far away "role.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-07-29 15:43:55 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

I hear the armour rep bonus is immensely popular on the small scale at least after the AAR introduction (tongue in cheek .. or is it! Smile) Would certainly make it into the quintessential brawler.


I realize you're probably joking but good god, no. CCP should retire the armor repair bonus and never put it on another ship ever again until such time as it's possible to fit upsized armor reps on a ship the way it is with shields. Or never at all, I'm honestly fine with either.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#183 - 2013-07-29 15:44:15 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
@ CCP


so you wont fix the vagabond problem that it has to use barrage to do any dmg?
this problem keeps it from fullfilling its role as point range kiter, but it seems you feel diffrent about this.

and i strongly believe the stats of beeing one of the most used cruisers is just an afterglow of its former glorious days



Rise is happy with a brawling Vaga because of his precious XLASB vaga that he made a video about. Too bad we aren't all Kil2.


Would love to see this video if you can link it for me =)

Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.

For those of you concerned with Vaga I have to say your expectations are a bit over the top, except the complaint that the Cynabal is too good relative to Vaga, which I already said I agree with.

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.

@ccp_rise
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2013-07-29 15:46:04 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

MUNINN

Lowering Signature Radius a bit but no large changes here.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 6H(-1), 3M, 6L(+1); 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 1160 PWG, 355 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1580(-2) / 2000(-4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1300(+50) / 255s (-80s) / 5.1/s (+1.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+14) / .571 / 11750000 / 9.3s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+25km) / 294 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 21 Ladar(+8)
Signature radius: 125(-5)


Okay, I am curious about one thing, and one thing only in regards to your changes to the Muninn. Will the new Muninn have Tech 2 Armor resists or Tech 2 shield resists, in line with the "versatility" of Minmatar racial ships?


what?


All T2 resists are RACIAL based. Not based on being armor or shield. Minamtar have rsist improved against Amarr, Amarr have resist improved agaisnt minmatar. Gallente and Caldari hate each other the same way.

It has no correlation to how the ship should tank!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kais Fiddler
Perkone
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-07-29 15:47:32 UTC
GeneralNukeEm wrote:
Quote:
We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.

How is 7.5% tracking per level for medium hybrid turrets not a compelling replacement for MWD cap use?

I agree, 7.5% tracking would make me want to fly the deimos.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2013-07-29 15:48:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
@ CCP


so you wont fix the vagabond problem that it has to use barrage to do any dmg?
this problem keeps it from fullfilling its role as point range kiter, but it seems you feel diffrent about this.

and i strongly believe the stats of beeing one of the most used cruisers is just an afterglow of its former glorious days



Rise is happy with a brawling Vaga because of his precious XLASB vaga that he made a video about. Too bad we aren't all Kil2.


Would love to see this video if you can link it for me =)

Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.

For those of you concerned with Vaga I have to say your expectations are a bit over the top, except the complaint that the Cynabal is too good relative to Vaga, which I already said I agree with.

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.



I would be a bit nervous about these 2 as well. But the metagame might not allow too much of those 2.


Question Rise.. can you tell us what are the LIKELY next classes that you shall visit? (not askign for ay time, just which direction.. completing t2 cruisers before moving of size? )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Novah Soul
#187 - 2013-07-29 15:50:14 UTC
Regarding the cap of the Zealot vs. the Sac, why does the ship with the capless system have more cap, not to mention faster regen, then the one with the lasers? Seems a bit backwards to me.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#188 - 2013-07-29 15:51:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


ISHTAR

I think the Ishtar had the most alarm bells after the first wave of feedback so it got some of the biggest changes. First of all, we rolled the drone bay bonus into the base stats and replaced it. Rather than the blanket 10% tracking and optimal drone bonus, we split the bonus into two more specialized bonuses. One to Sentry drone optimal and tracking, and another on Heavy Drone speed and tracking. Along with that we made a big adjustment to fitting Big smile

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145

=============================================================================

Wouldn't it be better if bonus were 7.5% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range for Gallente Cruiser and 7.5% bonus for drone speed and shield/armor resistance for Heavy Assault Cruiser.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#189 - 2013-07-29 15:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
CCP Rise wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
@ CCP


so you wont fix the vagabond problem that it has to use barrage to do any dmg?
this problem keeps it from fullfilling its role as point range kiter, but it seems you feel diffrent about this.

and i strongly believe the stats of beeing one of the most used cruisers is just an afterglow of its former glorious days



Rise is happy with a brawling Vaga because of his precious XLASB vaga that he made a video about. Too bad we aren't all Kil2.


Would love to see this video if you can link it for me =)

Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.

For those of you concerned with Vaga I have to say your expectations are a bit over the top, except the complaint that the Cynabal is too good relative to Vaga, which I already said I agree with.

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.


Blind leading the blind

2% ecm resistance as explained in my last post...

virtually no more resistance to sensor dampening... it's like you literally did nothing, and people are too clueless to even realize it.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2013-07-29 15:51:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
@ CCP


so you wont fix the vagabond problem that it has to use barrage to do any dmg?
this problem keeps it from fullfilling its role as point range kiter, but it seems you feel diffrent about this.

and i strongly believe the stats of beeing one of the most used cruisers is just an afterglow of its former glorious days



Rise is happy with a brawling Vaga because of his precious XLASB vaga that he made a video about. Too bad we aren't all Kil2.


Would love to see this video if you can link it for me =)

Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.

For those of you concerned with Vaga I have to say your expectations are a bit over the top, except the complaint that the Cynabal is too good relative to Vaga, which I already said I agree with.

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.


Lul our expectations are a bit over the top on a ship that is supposedly shield tanking with 4 meds?And really nerfing the cyna wont make people fly more the vaga , what will make them is move to better ships at speed/agi skirmish.

What you dont seem to grasp is , if you want the vaga to brawl take one low and put one med, or leave it has is and give it another bonus, agi,speed, whatever.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#191 - 2013-07-29 15:51:15 UTC
Quote:
Question Rise.. can you tell us what are the LIKELY next classes that you shall visit? (not askign for ay time, just which direction.. completing t2 cruisers before moving of size? )


I can't be specific, but I can tell you that you should be watching for a post from Fozzie coming up soon =)

@ccp_rise
Lucien Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2013-07-29 15:52:08 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
So, the Sacrilege still has a useless high slot, and no ability to tank in the lows if it wants any level of decent damage... awesome.

Remove the high slot, add a low slot. It's currently -2 low slots on the zealot, and has a bonus that only recovers one of those slots tank wise. How can you expect it to be a brawler if it's tank is garbage. You already hurt it's tank with the resist bonus changes.


I suppose we can all agree that adding a 6th low(without removing the 6th High) would be the most appealing change to the whole SAC issue. A very doable adjustment i might add. :-)
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#193 - 2013-07-29 15:52:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Cearain wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[b]VAGABOND

...
The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.



Good luck with that. Cynabal and vaga are almost identical ships that are currently stuck in the same exact role. The vaga, due to its reisists, was the one that could have more easilly broke out of the mold to allow it a brawler role. Now cynabals are obsolete until they are buffed to make vagas obsolete. If you try to buff cynabals to the point they can break out of that role they will just be op.

Other than that these ships are looking really good. Finally they are worth the isk. Yes even the vaga now that it is a better cynabal for less isk.



That could have been easily solved by moving a vaga low slot into mid slot with the shield boost bonus. Would make it the most brawlish. Also increase vagabond agility a bit (improve).


Nerf cynabal agility a tiny bit, and can even increase a bit its max speed.

One becomes the closer range more resilient and the other keeps the "stay very far away "role.


Why seriously that would nerf it even more for kiting and force it to be a brawler.
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-07-29 15:54:58 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:

Wouldn't it be better if bonus were 7.5% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range for Gallente Cruiser and 7.5% bonus for drone speed and shield/armor resistance for Heavy Assault Cruiser.


The proposed Ishtar is already really good; doing this would just step on the Prophecy's toes, I think.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2013-07-29 15:55:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Question Rise.. can you tell us what are the LIKELY next classes that you shall visit? (not askign for ay time, just which direction.. completing t2 cruisers before moving of size? )


I can't be specific, but I can tell you that you should be watching for a post from Fozzie coming up soon =)



Should I be scared? Shocked

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#196 - 2013-07-29 15:55:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Question Rise.. can you tell us what are the LIKELY next classes that you shall visit? (not askign for ay time, just which direction.. completing t2 cruisers before moving of size? )


I can't be specific, but I can tell you that you should be watching for a post from Fozzie coming up soon =)


soon™ or soon? Blink
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2013-07-29 15:56:16 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Cearain wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[b]VAGABOND

...
The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.



Good luck with that. Cynabal and vaga are almost identical ships that are currently stuck in the same exact role. The vaga, due to its reisists, was the one that could have more easilly broke out of the mold to allow it a brawler role. Now cynabals are obsolete until they are buffed to make vagas obsolete. If you try to buff cynabals to the point they can break out of that role they will just be op.

Other than that these ships are looking really good. Finally they are worth the isk. Yes even the vaga now that it is a better cynabal for less isk.



That could have been easily solved by moving a vaga low slot into mid slot with the shield boost bonus. Would make it the most brawlish. Also increase vagabond agility a bit (improve).


Nerf cynabal agility a tiny bit, and can even increase a bit its max speed.

One becomes the closer range more resilient and the other keeps the "stay very far away "role.


Why seriously that would nerf it even more for kiting and force it to be a brawler.


Yes it would.. as I stated in my post would make them into different ships.. vagabond a Brawlish kiter and the cynabal as a full kitter.

You can make the opposite if youw ant, but its easier to make a HAC the brawlish one than the pirate ship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#198 - 2013-07-29 15:57:10 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Lul our expectations are a bit over the top on a ship that is supposedly shield tanking with 4 meds?And really nerfing the cyna wont make people fly more the vaga , what will make them is move to better ships at speed/agi skirmish.

What you dont seem to grasp is , if you want the vaga to brawl take one low and put one med, or leave it has is and give it another bonus, agi,speed, whatever.

Ships are shield tanking with 4 med slot for years with great success...
DeadDuck
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2013-07-29 15:57:49 UTC
Lucien Cain wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
So, the Sacrilege still has a useless high slot, and no ability to tank in the lows if it wants any level of decent damage... awesome.

Remove the high slot, add a low slot. It's currently -2 low slots on the zealot, and has a bonus that only recovers one of those slots tank wise. How can you expect it to be a brawler if it's tank is garbage. You already hurt it's tank with the resist bonus changes.


I suppose we can all agree that adding a 6th low(without removing the 6th High) would be the most appealing change to the whole SAC issue. A very doable adjustment i might add. :-)


Actually let it stay with the current slot layout. Adds a ton of flexibility to the number of valid setups that you will be able to use in TQ.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#200 - 2013-07-29 15:58:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.
You're happy with the Ishtar only having three bonuses at a time? Why is it that CCP is happy gimping Gallente ships?

Ishtar has three effective bonuses at a time when flown properly, Deimos completely wastes a bonus when fit with an AB, and there are far too many to list that lose out on a bonus when fit for buffer. How does this make any sense, because if I'm missing something here, please let me know.

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