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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two First post First post First post
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CCP Rise

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 5,688

#1 - 2013-07-29 12:02:08 UTC | Edited by: CCP Ytterbium

Hello!

Lets get back to this HAC thing. The first HAC proposal raised discussion around tons of topics (you can find it HERE if you don't believe me). Common ones included our overall design for tech levels, the way HACs intersect with tech 1, tech 3, and faction ships and of course specific input on ship-by-ship stats and performance. I want to try and cover as much of this as possible so get some tea or something.

Lets start with role. We've had several presentations and posts and dev blogs now which explain that tech 1 is general and tech 2 is specialized. While this is certainly our high-level goal, it will be compromised occasionally when the specifics of a certain project have other goals that pull in another direction. HACs are an example. The reality is that when HACs were first introduced they were just cruisers on steroids. The defensive benefits of added resists were the most distinct 'specialization', but they were nowhere near as specialized as something like Recons or Stealth Bombers.

With the rebalance effort here, we discussed entirely new roles or specializations that would be more in-line with the high level ideas we have laid out for all EVE ships, but ultimately decided that it wasn't worth completely throwing out the ships we had. Not only do they have a lot of history in the game, which leads to attachment, but they also have a lot of legitimate use already which we wanted to avoid disrupting if possible.

Now all that said, most of the feedback was in agreement that you would prefer to have their role more clear and pronounced. Basically, we didn't go far enough by adding the role bonus and it would be better if they stood out more from their competition as being specialized in some way. So, we focused on their resilience. HACs are tough but mobile cruisers that can take a lot of punishment. What we want to do is extend that tenacity to some of their other systems, namely electronics and capacitor.

All HACs will gain 7-8 sensor strength, putting their average Sensor Strength at 22 which is right around combat battleship range.
All HACs gain 15k to 25k lock range

All HACs have their cap recharge per second set to around 5.5 rather than the former 3.5 - 4.5 cap/sec

Along with these changes, we are going to go ahead with the originally proposed role bonus. I've seen and participated in tons of talk about this bonus and I keep seeing the same problem - the tracking formula is not intuitive and the confusion leads to this bonus looking less powerful than it actually is. I've made another set of graphs to help illustrate, but please keep in mind that this is just one example and results may vary.

DAMAGE GRAPHS

On the left is the damage that three different ships (Null Blaster Talos, HML Drake and AHAC Zealot) do to a Sacrilege with its MWD on without the role bonus. On the right is after the role bonus. You can see that the Zealot, which tracks extremely well, isn't heavily affected, but the Talos and the Drake lose about 25% of their DPS. Now we can have a new discussion about how important that 25% is, but its important to understand that we are usually talking about an extremely significant amount of damage mitigation when MWD is active. And again, we know that not all HACs will be running MWDs, but we feel that those configurations are plenty powerful and prefer to support a larger variety of applications by adding the MWD bonus.

Alright, lets get to specifics. The big takeaway from feedback (both CSM and public thread) was that we have more room to make HACs more powerful without putting too much pressure on their competition, so watch for that as you read through all the changes. Note: the differences appearing in (parentheses) are as compared to the version of ship on TQ currently, not the first iteration.

@ccp_rise

CCP Rise

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 5,688

#2 - 2013-07-29 12:02:14 UTC | Edited by: CCP Rise

SACRILEGE

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (added heavy missiles)
4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile velocity (was capacitor recharge time)
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 1 turrets(-3), 5 launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG(+70), 420 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2250(+162) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1700(+75) / 255s (-80s) / 6.66s (+1.8)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+2) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+20km) / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Radar(+7)
Signature radius: 135(-5)

ZEALOT

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125

=============================================================================

CERBERUS

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Missile flight time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 800 PWG(+165), 520 CPU(+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2000(-4) / 1200(+4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1200(+137.5) / 235s (-100s) / 5.1/s (+1.93)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+45) / .463 / 12720000 / 8.17s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+15) / 15(+15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+15km) / 282 / 6
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric(+8)
Signature radius: 135

EAGLE

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 990 PWG(+115), 440 CPU(+2)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1350(-25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.29/s (+1.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 180(+16) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+20km) / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 25 Gravimetric(+7)
Signature radius: 140(-10)

=============================================================================

DEIMOS

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 4M(+1), 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+60), 360 CPU(+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+40) / 2100(+60) / 2550(+19)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400(+25) / 225s (-110s) / 6.2/s (+2.1)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 230(+22) / .475(-.055) / 11460000 / 7.54s(-.875)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+20km) / 270 / 6
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric(+7)
Signature radius: 150(-10)

ISHTAR

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 780 PWG(+80), 340 CPU(+55)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400 (-6) / 1600 (-18) / 2300 (+191)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1400 (+275) / 265s (-70s) / 5.28/s (+1.9)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+4) / .52 / 11100000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km(+20km) / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric (+7)
Signature radius: 145

=============================================================================

VAGABOND

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount (was 5% bonus to max velocity)

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 900 PWG(+45), 400...

@ccp_rise


CCP Rise C C P C C P Alliance Likes received: 5,688	#3 - 2013-07-29 12:04:48 UTC 13 Going upstairs for food, be right back to answer questions =) @ccp_rise

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#4 - 2013-07-29 12:08:43 UTC | Edited by: Kagura Nikon

Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit.

The sacriledge is much better.

The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case

Well.. I just hope when you reach the recons you do not forget to make the Huggin the same thing you made the bellicose...

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kururugi

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 15

#5 - 2013-07-29 12:16:41 UTC | Edited by: Kururugi

Oh snap I came right on time! Big smile

Time to get readin'

edit 3x

Hmm, not so sure if I can agree with the cap recharge removal for the Sac, it tanked like a monster and I fear it will be far more frail now that it's gone. You can also make it a nice and round 6.0(edit3x 6.66 is very nice. Will see how that play out. Glad you're keeping the utility high tho. Will be interesting to see how a neut/nos will work on it.)

I can see some homogenization (similar bonuses etc) going on, maybe it's just me.

Liandri Industrial 73
Allandri Liandri Industrial Likes received: 73	#6 - 2013-07-29 12:18:20 UTC \| Edited by: Allandri 7 Disappointed that they all kept the MWD bloom bonus and the fact that the Cerberus kept the kinetic damage bonus

Doomheim 520
Ix Method Doomheim Likes received: 520	#7 - 2013-07-29 12:19:42 UTC 1 /me wipes away a tear Thanks you. Travelling at the speed of love.

ZC Omega 729
Smoking Blunts ZC Omega Likes received: 729	#8 - 2013-07-29 12:24:44 UTC 13 the sac still sucks, it either dosnt have enough tank or not enough dps. move the utility high to an extra low. love this ship, but you are not fixing it enough to make it worth flying OMG when can i get a pic here

Half Empty xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku 1,336
Capqu Half Empty xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku Likes received: 1,336	#9 - 2013-07-29 12:24:52 UTC \| Edited by: Capqu 1 rise thanks for everything, the Cerberus (read: the only one i care about) is perfect i'm so sorry about atxi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg

M1k3y Koontz

Speaker for the Dead

Shadow Cartel

Likes received: 806

#10 - 2013-07-29 12:27:28 UTC | Edited by: M1k3y Koontz

Ok, I read through them, and I'm still disappointed.

They still lack the EHP or the DPS to compete with their T1 counterparts, and lock range was never a problem for the non-sniper HACs. I like the sensor strength bonus, but these ships still aren't worth the cost compared to their T1 counterparts!

They need more DPS, more EHP, and the Vaga needs some more powergrid (to XLASB a Vaga, with 5 180mms, an MWD, you still need an ACR)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#11 - 2013-07-29 12:28:11 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

The presence of the bonus still doesn't force you to use the bonus, any more than it did in the first iteration. hth.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Aliastra Gallente Federation 20
Zer Res Aliastra Gallente Federation Likes received: 20	#12 - 2013-07-29 12:28:41 UTC 3 Thanks for the Eagle PG and especially for the Ishtar fitting buffs!

Hannott Thanos

Squadron 15

Likes received: 868

#13 - 2013-07-29 12:29:43 UTC

Kagura Nikon wrote:

The cerberus.. I still fear might become too powerful with speed. but the metagame might not let that happen.. we must wait and see on this case

"Cerberus" and "too powerful" in the same sentence. That's a first.

Anyway, THANK YOU SO MUCH for the CPU on the Ishtar, CCP Rise!

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

_myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Caldari Provisions Caldari State 94
Arrgthepirate Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 94	#14 - 2013-07-29 12:31:00 UTC 12 I'm really excited about the Eagle, Ishtar, and Vagabond. However, I feel that the kinetic damage bonus on the Cerebus is another relic of the past. Can't it just be a slightly reduced bonus to all missile damage?

Kristoffon Ellecon

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 120

#15 - 2013-07-29 12:35:16 UTC

CCP Rise wrote:

The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.

I think you're doing great work overall. IMHO all the proposed changes are good so my only comment is: please don't ruin the Cynabal I trust you will manage to keep it a powerful ship, inline with its cost, that can be flow in a variety of ways -- armor, shield buffer, shield active, ac, arty, etc, and pretty please with a cherry on top don't nerf its speed. Thank you.


Capqu Half Empty xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku Likes received: 1,336	#16 - 2013-07-29 12:35:26 UTC Arrgthepirate wrote: I'm really excited about the Eagle, Ishtar, and Vagabond. However, I feel that the kinetic damage bonus on the Cerebus is another relic of the past. Can't it just be a slightly reduced bonus to all missile damage? nah dude, its already super strong you need to let rapid lights into your life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg

Chi'Nane T'Kal

Interminatus

Likes received: 322

#17 - 2013-07-29 12:35:58 UTC

Some positive changes there.

I still don't understand why you maintain the 4/5/5 setup on the Ishtar, though and not go 4/4/6 to get away from the predominant shieldtank - which is what the Gila is there for.

The heavy drone bonus might be useful one day - if you ever get to fix heavy/med drones in general, so they don't die while warping to their targets (or back into the drone bay in PvE).

Biron Soringard

Absurdity of Abstractions

Likes received: 6

#18 - 2013-07-29 12:36:49 UTC

These definitely sound much better than the previous iteration. While I do still have a few concerns, they mostly have to deal with the metagaming of New Eden, and thus can't really be counted on too heavily for balance purposes, as the meta is constanty changing and morphing with the times.

So, overall, they look promising. The Ishtar's Heavy Drone Velocity bonus is pretty interesting.

Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde 180
Shade Millith Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde Likes received: 180	#19 - 2013-07-29 12:36:55 UTC \| Edited by: Shade Millith 2 Kagura Nikon wrote: Still worried on the shield boost bonus on a ship with only 4 mids. It bee lines the ship on a basic single fit. You are not required to use every single bonus on a ship. It's still the old vagabond.

Jarlhettur's Drop United Federation of Conifers 411
HiddenPorpoise Jarlhettur's Drop United Federation of Conifers Likes received: 411	#20 - 2013-07-29 12:37:07 UTC 8 I like it, but why is the Diemos(t) loosing tank?

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xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku

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