Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This is how ECM should function. 20 second lockout durations, falcons perma jamming 3 targets simultaneously, is all ludicrous.

Break the lock from the target, and force them to re-lock everything. Even buff the chances of successful breaks.

ECM is not in line with other forms of Ewar. Even if you like the way it functions currently, you must concede that it is far more effective than the other 3 forms. This is inherently unbalanced.

I'd be open to hearing an argument against ECM being on par with TDs, SDs, or TPs, but I doubt it will stand.

Good.

If you step back and take a look ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR verities with the exception of TPs. You can sensor damp a target to the point that they can't lock anything. The great advantage of damps over ECM is that damps don't miss. You can make the argument that tracking disruption is more effective than ECM because it has the potential to prevent a ship from being able to track anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track it to kill it? Of course TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats which would make it less effective than ECM.

In other words ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. ECM lasts 20 seconds, SDs and TDs are forever. The other balancing factor is ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other 3 races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of jamming or a 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of jamming or a 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of jamming or a 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of jamming or a 82% chance of doing nothing.
*These are the senor strength numbers before training Ladar Sensor Compensation. Jam strength doesn't factor in any ECM skills.

Imagine your guns, point, MWD, hardeners, etc had a 55% or higher chance of not working. That is how effective an ECM is.

ECM has been nerfed too much now, how much ecm do you see in fleets these days? Currently you get some falcons in small gangs killing smaller gangs or solo dudes and that is about it. Tds and damps are far more prevalent in fleet fights.

Now add a Falcon bonus, 30% increased jam strength per level.
Now add on Signal Distortion Amplifiers, increases jam strength another 10% each.
Now add ECM strength rigs which increase jam strength by yet another 10% each.

With Recons 5 and 2 SDAs, and one ECM strength rig you can increase the jammer strength by ~142%
Look at those numbers again.

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 14.2 (thank you EFT) Now these numbers are before overheating and without links, since nobody flies with Proteus links.

Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/8 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming or a 0% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/13 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming or a 0% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/16 sensor strength = 88.75% chance of jamming or a 11.25% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/20 sensor strength = 71% chance of jamming or a 29% chance of doing nothing.

Helps to fit the way a Falcon does.



The main problem I have with ECM is the drones, not the Falcon (though that cloak is evil), since almost every ship with a drone bay has a flight of EC-300s (and no other EWar drone is ever used).


Its a good proposal for ECM. +1

ecm needs a boost

how many fits have eccm in them? probably very minimal , why?
cause ecm is so overnerfed that running into an ecm ships is so small chance that it is neglectible

and if ecm is so op then why on the tournament every ecm fleets lost and damps win?

There's one extremely important tidbit about ECM vs. other EWar: ECM is chance based.

This is why you see the current meta moving away from ECM and to things like sensor damps and tracking disruptors.

Let me give you an example:

Oh no! Your friend is tackled by a long range interceptor! He needs to get away now! What ever shall we do?

A) Attempt to jam him and take the chance that the jam will fail;
B) Use a sensor damp to cut down the interceptor's already anemic lock range.

I prefer, and have used to great effect in the past, option B. The great part about option B is that you know exactly what will happen, assuming the target is in optimal. You will cut down their lock range by a 1/3 or more, depending.

Here's another example:

Holy cow! The enemy brought some long range snipers. Pew Pew! Ouch! You need to get those guys out of the picture for a while! What ever shall we do?

A) Attempt to jam them all and take the chance that one or many jams will fail;
B) Use a tracking disruptor on each one, killing their optimal, forcing them to close range to be effective again.

Again, option B is a guaranteed effect. It doesn't destroy their ability to lock completely, but it does give a 100% chance to affect their effectiveness. On bonused ships this can be extremely powerful.

Here's the thing:

In small gang and solo combat, ECM is pretty effective. You can stack multiple jammers on a single target and they're screwed. I've done it, I've had it done to me, it does suck.

At the same time, bringing a gun ship and having multiple TDs stacked on you is very nearly as bad. Stacking SDs is just as bad as ECM against a kiting gang with long range webs - in fact is is worse, as ECM is still chance based and you could in theory still get a lock. Stacked SDs are really powerful.

In large gang combat, ECM is less effective because you're going to miss more jams and you can't jam them ALL, can you? Here, other kinds of EWar can be extremely powerful.

Additionally, ECM is pretty weak when you use off-racial jammers. Other EWar is 100% effective all the time.

Target painters are pretty weak as far as EWar goes, but a painter or two in a gang can help with damage application. Painters are okay, they have a niche, they are very useful in the right situations.

Anyway, ECM isn't the ultimate EWar. It is strong, it has its place, but it will fail you. This is coming from someone who flew ECM support in gangs almost exclusively for about a year - I'm really familiar with it.

I think it is mildly unfair. By giving the rifter a 1/20 chance of not being jammed by the first jammer, that rifter has a place on the battlefield. I want every ship to have a purpose, and I feel that guaranteed jams are too potent. Realize, all that means is every once in a while that jammer must endure a rifter's dps for 20 seconds, or spend a second jammer on him. I don't think this is unfair to jammers.

You seem to forget there is never one ECM drone. A single ship launches 5 ECM drones. A small gang of 5 guys launches 25 ECM drones. A blob of 25+ guys launches 125 EC-300s.

Its not that individual ECM drones are OP, its that ECM drones don't stack like other EWar drones do, which means they are ridiculously OP in swarms.



Ok then, nerf the Falcon. Watch how all ECM pilots scream bloody murder.

125 ec-300s that are effectively countered by one guy in the opposing fleet with a large smartbomb, are all but impossible to co-ordinate for wasted jams and which the opposing fleet is giving up 2500 dps to field. You think that is unbalanced?

Did you not read my post... I already provided the chance of jamming. Did you not believe my numbers?

FYI: Jammers routinely overheat (although Info links aren't all that common), and they can keep heat going for several minutes with decent skills. In addtion, you'll rarely find ECCM on ships other than T1 & T2 Logistics, some BC's that know they are facing ECM, and some BS's that know they are facing ECM. I have a thread up asking for more utility from ECCM modules (note: My thread suggests NOTHING to change the current ECM-ECCM balance).

Here's a couple things to keep in mind about EC Drones:

When out soloing, I despise getting jammed off that stabber by his 5 EC drones... They reliably hit, as the 30% chance of jam for 5 EC-300's is only counting ONE CYCLE. Give them 2 cycles (20ish seconds) and it's a 50% success rate. Give them 3 cycles (40ish seconds), and it's a 65% success rate. If I'm in a taranis, underneath the guns of a Vagabond, that single jam cycle is enough for him to pull range and blapp me. It's simply a race of can I kill his drones before he gets the jam (which is a coin toss).

In small gang combat (3-6 pilots), groups of EC drones are very potent. A single jam may easily swing the fight to your favor.

And here's another recent example: If you watch Agony's last fight in this years AT, the commentators were floored by us putting a smartbomb on our Vindicator. This was place on the Vindi specifically to clear EC drones from the field. During last years testing, when minmatar rush was very popular, swarms of 10-30 EC-300 & EC-600 drones were extremely common. They could reliably jam out a BS 30-60% of the time, and when you have a bunch of utility wrapped up in a single ship, that's quite devastating to your game play.

Now, this is just food for thought. I'm not firmly in the "let's nerf ec drones because they are crazy overpowered" camp. I just recognize them as frustrating and potent, and thing a review of their utility is reasonable. I also recognize most other EWAR drones are underutilized because they are underwhelming, and also need to be reviewed!