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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

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Kai Lae
Karmunism Limited
#221 - 2013-07-20 19:54:53 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
I really would like to see more range on Medium weapons. The ranges are pretty sad in general. 10-12 kms is hardly "long range" by todays standards. 20ish would be ideal, in my opinion.

Thanks for listening.



There is a whole lot of people here who are posting about things they don't really know much about, but in at least one area Bloodpetal has a good point. Has anyone at CCP noticed just how short ranged you all have made quad light beams? While I fully realize they are crap for DPS, the fact remains that a QLB with radio is outranged by a focused pulse laser with scorch. The pulse laser has over 1km more optimal with standard crystals. QLB have 12km optimal with standard crystals, which is ludicrous. Comparing that to a FMBL which has a 26km optimal in the same situation and you can see the enormous disparity. The range of this weapon should be increased in this balance pass; 16km would be a good number I would say, and would be consistent with range reductions across other classes of long range weapons.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#222 - 2013-07-20 23:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Would it not be better to further differentiate between medium and large turrets by either improving the tracking of mediums or degrading the tracking of larges, rather than pushing the two categories closer together? Or if not that, reworking the tracking formula as others have said to expand the medium turret niche (with my earlier disclaimer that I Am Not A Numbers Guy in mind).


Whoa, whoa, whoa buddy. The ABC's are an anomaly *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Sure, reducing tracking in the situation of ABC's is needed, possibly, to adddress the problem.

However, this does nothing to stop the problem. It just allows a Dram or ceptor to actually survive a corkscrew in on a Nado fleet from 150km. Not like there's a point - your average nado fleet these days suffers a paltry amount greater agility, which they just rig off with Polycarbs. So they get slightly less DPS (still godly alpha) and equal agility.

The fact is, as a standoff sniper, they either bring along huginns with 36km webs and uber TP, or Lachs with 24km scram to deal with ceptors, or they just bounce out before the ceptor scrams them. Agility helps in the latter example, and as demonstrated, you rig off the "nerf" to agility.

Now, why am I against tracking nerfs for large guns? Despite the whine about how useless AHACs are, this is compared to T1 cruisers (yes, i said it) and Navy cruiser counterparts (SFI's, Scythe Fleets, NOmens, Naugs, NVexors, Nexeq's) which do better tank, equal or better DPS.

Any of these ships, properly used in real AHAC configuration, with AB's, can avoid almost all BS DPS at short range. At long range, the sig vs large gun resolution equation still protects them, especially if you maintain transversal.

Reducing large gun tracking even further will make BS's even more obsolete.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#223 - 2013-07-20 23:56:18 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts (and those that quoted them) and let some edge cases stay.
Please keep it on topic people and above all civil!

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2013-07-21 00:05:19 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.



Aw indeed awesome fit, I couldn't do any better because I'm terrible at fittings, let me show you:

[Brutix LOLHAHAHA]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

382 Guns DPS all skills 5 at 20.7+19.5km, then add the awesome sauce dps from drones 158 dps for a total 540DPS, now don't even try to fit long range ammo on your rails or you will feel like hara-kiri


I'm sure I can do a little better with Federation Navy drones and an officer fit but I'm not quite sure Lol
Yet this doesn't prove how horrible HM's are but ONLY how much of a piece of **** long range medium guns ARE.

Also: -15% tracking?? - *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Are you implying any of that gun damage would land at 50km? Which, let's check, is 10km outside falloff?
Or was there some other purpose to this post that I can't make out?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#225 - 2013-07-21 01:50:12 UTC
Everything looked fine until you snipped off 15% of the already poor tracking Railguns have.

Are you trying to make Caldari gunboats into things that HAVE to sit at 150 kilometers because of weak tank, caused by PG-hungry turrets, that STILL don't really have enough of a punch to be justified fitting at all?
Whitehound
#226 - 2013-07-21 07:33:43 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Everything looked fine until you snipped off 15% of the already poor tracking Railguns have.

Are you trying to make Caldari gunboats into things that HAVE to sit at 150 kilometers because of weak tank, caused by PG-hungry turrets, that STILL don't really have enough of a punch to be justified fitting at all?

Yes, pretty much.

Now one needs to use Gallente ships (with tracking bonus) for rails more than anything. And Caldari ships have to stick to blasters more than ever.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Max Zerg
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2013-07-21 09:40:26 UTC
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

Please, simulate Gallente and Caldari newbies with the following skills:

Racial Cruiser IV
Medium Hybrid Turret IV
Electronics IV
Weapon Upgrades III
Engineering IV
Shield Upgrades III
Energy Management IV
Energy Systems Operation III
Controlled Bursts III
Shield Management III
Shield Operation III
Hull Upgrades IV
Repair Systems IV
Mechanic IV
Gunnery IV
Motion Prediction III
Sharpshooter III
Rapid Firing III
Long Range Targeting IV
Jury Rigging III


then, please, try to fit REBALANCED 4 x 250mm prototype gauss gun to Vexor
and 5 x 250mm prototype gauss gun to Moa

Then, please, suggest cap stable fits for both cruisers for new players
without fitting Medium CCC T2 rigs (each of those exceeds the price of
the ship itself) and without carrying the whole cargo of Cap Boosters.

I still want to address the issue of increasing ROF means increasing the
capacitor consumption, aslo the railguns' tracking is already bad enough,
why to make it completely awful ?

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#228 - 2013-07-21 11:35:32 UTC
Max Zerg wrote:
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

-snip-

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks


You should know that weapon system are not balanced around level 2 or 3 missions but pvp. And Lead uses 50% less capacitor to give you a hint.

Still there are some other issues with railguns of any size,

- Nobody ever wants to use ammunition below Lead S, M, L so Iridium, Tungsten and Iron (LolLolLol iron...) charges need to be locked at too.
Sure at that range they provide you could always take Spike of all sizes and be done with it but do we really always want to use tech2 ammo to make our guns work?
- The reason why everyone uses Antimatter for a damage comparison even if it is "close range" ammo is because the damage of the other charges is not good enough to make them work and as soon as some reads railgun in his / her log they will approach and kill you and mock you in local for doing it
- Railguns have such terrible tracking that I'd rather use pulse lasers on my Caldari hulls now

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#229 - 2013-07-21 11:35:37 UTC
Max Zerg wrote:
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

Please, simulate Gallente and Caldari newbies with the following skills:

Racial Cruiser IV
Medium Hybrid Turret IV
Electronics IV
Weapon Upgrades III
Engineering IV
Shield Upgrades III
Energy Management IV
Energy Systems Operation III
Controlled Bursts III
Shield Management III
Shield Operation III
Hull Upgrades IV
Repair Systems IV
Mechanic IV
Gunnery IV
Motion Prediction III
Sharpshooter III
Rapid Firing III
Long Range Targeting IV
Jury Rigging III


then, please, try to fit REBALANCED 4 x 250mm prototype gauss gun to Vexor
and 5 x 250mm prototype gauss gun to Moa

Then, please, suggest cap stable fits for both cruisers for new players
without fitting Medium CCC T2 rigs (each of those exceeds the price of
the ship itself) and without carrying the whole cargo of Cap Boosters.

I still want to address the issue of increasing ROF means increasing the
capacitor consumption, aslo the railguns' tracking is already bad enough,
why to make it completely awful ?

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks


Because they have to be more like a talos with null yo...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Enthes goldhart
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2013-07-21 11:40:24 UTC
Serenity Zipher wrote:
I am all for a buff to medium rails/beams, but CCP is failing to see what they direly need the most, increased optimal/falloff range!!!


yep, this is also going to make HML's even more pointless.
Max Zerg
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2013-07-21 12:24:29 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Max Zerg wrote:
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

-snip-

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks


You should know that weapon system are not balanced around level 2 or 3 missions but pvp. And Lead uses 50% less capacitor to give you a hint.

-snip-


Dear Elitatwo

Thank you for the explanation.
PVP is not much for noobs with zero EWAR skills and very beginner spaceship and gunnery skills
as far as i understand the proposed changes the Gallente newbies are to
1) train Battlecruisers as soon as possible (becaise neigther Myrmidon nor Dominix have Hybrid weapon bonuses)
2) train Projectile Weapons (because of way less capacitor consuption)

in other words CCP tells me - if you want to fly the drone boat DO NOT use cruisers but train BattleCruisers ASAP instead and DO NOT train Hybrid weapons. Same applies to Caldari newbie - learn Missiles and DO NOT train Hybrids
I see a little problem here: proposed changes may be nice for "ALL 5" gurus, but (IMHO!) not much newbie-friendly
of maybe i do not realize anything right and "new" rails are OK for beginners. I protest that much hoping to be heard and hoping my questions to be answered
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#232 - 2013-07-21 12:51:15 UTC
Max Zerg wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Max Zerg wrote:
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

-snip-

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks


You should know that weapon system are not balanced around level 2 or 3 missions but pvp. And Lead uses 50% less capacitor to give you a hint.

-snip-


Dear Elitatwo

Thank you for the explanation.
PVP is not much for noobs with zero EWAR skills and very beginner spaceship and gunnery skills
as far as i understand the proposed changes the Gallente newbies are to
1) train Battlecruisers as soon as possible (becaise neigther Myrmidon nor Dominix have Hybrid weapon bonuses)
2) train Projectile Weapons (because of way less capacitor consuption)

in other words CCP tells me - if you want to fly the drone boat DO NOT use cruisers but train BattleCruisers ASAP instead and DO NOT train Hybrid weapons. Same applies to Caldari newbie - learn Missiles and DO NOT train Hybrids
I see a little problem here: proposed changes may be nice for "ALL 5" gurus, but (IMHO!) not much newbie-friendly
of maybe i do not realize anything right and "new" rails are OK for beginners. I protest that much hoping to be heard and hoping my questions to be answered


Believe it or not even with all V skills railsguns have terrible tracking and I will cap myself out in my Moa in a level 3 using antimatter all rounds.
A skill at level V does not prevent you from dying and you can make do with lower skills and kill older players if you set your mind to it.
PVP does not start with pressing F1, it starts as an idea in your mind, choosing a ship to fly and set your mind fitting the ship in a a way that will accomplish the goal of killing another boat you choose to engage.
Just set your mind that you will loose your ship no matter what you fit or if you are succesful or not and you can have a blast in your chosen playstyle.
It is proven that you can kill a Rifter in a Thrasher or Catalyst with all tech1 meta 0 guns and tech1 ammo if you catch a pilot who does turn his or her guns on in time.
You will fail a lot of times and learn a few things while you are at it but we all did and will continue to do so.
You should also learn that it is not important to be cap stable in an EFT fit, you just need to keep an eye on your capacitor.
You just need to have enough cap to wreck havoc in a short timespan.
As soon as you think you don't have enough capacitor you should fly out of harms way and come back later when your capacitor is recharged.
An afterburner or microwarpdrive will cap you out quickly but it will help you get out of harms way or diminish damage you recieve in a mission.
Fit on of these and head to a nearby asteroid field and fly around a bit to get an idea how your capacitor is doing over time.
And don't ever hit the "orbit" button and fly your ship by doubleclicking somewhere random in space in the direction of choosing.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2013-07-21 23:37:54 UTC
I like the changes, bring 'em on.

I used medium rails and switched to arty as I found it better for missions, this may well give me a reason to switch back to rails again and try a Gallente gun boat instead of a drone boat.

Not quite sure I understand the number of people who are basically saying "I want to be able to install the best weapons, but then also install all the armour or shield tank I want, plus whatever else I want - make that change now"

Surely the point is that to have one thing brilliant you are going to have to pick and choose and sacrifice something else?

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-07-21 23:40:48 UTC
Jeffrey Asher wrote:
I like the changes, bring 'em on.

I used medium rails and switched to arty as I found it better for missions, this may well give me a reason to switch back to rails again and try a Gallente gun boat instead of a drone boat.

Not quite sure I understand the number of people who are basically saying "I want to be able to install the best weapons, but then also install all the armour or shield tank I want, plus whatever else I want - make that change now"

Surely the point is that to have one thing brilliant you are going to have to pick and choose and sacrifice something else?



Because I can simply build a battlecruiser to do everything a HAC does, WITH top end weapons and a full tank.....if I want to give up the tank, I can fit battleship weapons.

....and I can do it for half of the price.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#235 - 2013-07-22 00:11:32 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.



Aw indeed awesome fit, I couldn't do any better because I'm terrible at fittings, let me show you:

[Brutix LOLHAHAHA]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

382 Guns DPS all skills 5 at 20.7+19.5km, then add the awesome sauce dps from drones 158 dps for a total 540DPS, now don't even try to fit long range ammo on your rails or you will feel like hara-kiri


I'm sure I can do a little better with Federation Navy drones and an officer fit but I'm not quite sure Lol
Yet this doesn't prove how horrible HM's are but ONLY how much of a piece of **** long range medium guns ARE.

Also: -15% tracking?? - *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Are you implying any of that gun damage would land at 50km? Which, let's check, is 10km outside falloff?
Or was there some other purpose to this post that I can't make out?



You should know by now for that gun to put 0 dmg it's fall off +2 but with in yes you will apply ridiculous dmg still. Try it out with someone else, check your guns total op+fall off then ad an extra fall off range and shoot, see what happens ^^

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Dillonp
End-of-Line
#236 - 2013-07-22 05:17:40 UTC
Any plan to make defender missiles viable?
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#237 - 2013-07-22 06:25:55 UTC
Dillonp wrote:
Any plan to make defender missiles viable?


Ha ha ha ha *gasp* ah ha ha ha ha. *cough* *wheeze*

CCP doesn't want there to be any hard counters to missiles like every other weapon has.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-07-22 08:05:52 UTC
I just saw a very interesting comparison over at The Mittani:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20 (27 after change)
Alpha: 92 (106 after change)
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1 (-1.29 after change)
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21 (26 after change)
Alpha: 91 (114 after change)
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2
CPU: 27.8

Doesn't take tracking into account, yeah, but we're talking sniping ammo here. Mot relevant points bolded out.

Is it me or is there something terribly wrong here?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#239 - 2013-07-22 08:58:20 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I just saw a very interesting comparison over at The Mittani:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20 (27 after change)
Alpha: 92 (106 after change)
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1 (-1.29 after change)
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21 (26 after change)
Alpha: 91 (114 after change)
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2
CPU: 27.8

Doesn't take tracking into account, yeah, but we're talking sniping ammo here. Mot relevant points bolded out.

Is it me or is there something terribly wrong here?


If you ignore the optimal part..

3,8 cap/s? Rofl.. no wonder its impossible to make a good beam omen..

Also the fittings on both of those are completely incompatable with armor tanking.. Which is **** for the omen that doesn't really have any other choice.. WTB FITTING REBALANCE >_>

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#240 - 2013-07-22 12:33:51 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I just saw a very interesting comparison over at The Mittani:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20 (27 after change)
Alpha: 92 (106 after change)
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1 (-1.29 after change)
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21 (26 after change)
Alpha: 91 (114 after change)
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2
CPU: 27.8

Doesn't take tracking into account, yeah, but we're talking sniping ammo here. Mot relevant points bolded out.

Is it me or is there something terribly wrong here?


Oh ma gawd, I can see it now Shocked
If you would have a boat with 5 of these gun, that would mean you can poke someone with an 530hp damage alpha strike at 65km.
This is totally OP, no other ship can do so much damage with one shot at 65km.

Somebody call the goverment, we have a revolution on our hands!!!

Will Concord be able to intervene?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever