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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#261 - 2013-07-16 22:44:20 UTC
Schalac wrote:
And if nobody uses the cash shop in other F2P games guess how fast they shut down and noone can access the servers.

F2P is a gimmick. It makes you feel like you don't have to spend any money on the game to play it. Yet studies have shown that people that play F2P games normally end up spending more per year in a cash shop compared to a monthly subscription based game. When they do in fact use the cash shop.

So does that mean that F2P is really P2P? Because you have people spending enough money to cover more peoples subscription. Their allotted storage space on the server for their character?

Money rules the world, and all MMOs "F2P/P2P" need money to operate. That money comes from subscriptions, which in a F2P game is what you sign up for when you make an account for that game. The way they collect the money is just different from a time allotted payment plan. ISK for PLEX is a F2P model along those same lines. So who are you trying to convince that it isn't? Yourself or others?


Nobody is arguing that F2P games do not generate revenue. Virtually every game generates revenue somehow (there are some advertising free, no charge hobby projects out there, after all).

The primary revenue models for MMOs are F2P and Subscription.

In Subscription games, the company collects a subscription fee for access to the content.
In F2P games, the company does not collect a subscription fee for access to the content, instead expecting to make that money from extra services (i.e. Cash Shop).

In one, access is controlled by a fee. In the other, it is not. See the difference?

In EVE, access is controlled by a fee. That fee must be paid for each and every account for each and every month it is active.

Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than my paying for your lunch changes the revenue model of the restaurant. Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than ordering the same meal every time you go to a restaurant turn the restaurant into a prix-fix place.
Your actions (and the actions of other players) do not change the fundamental business model of the game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#262 - 2013-07-17 00:04:06 UTC
A free to play game requires a player to do NOTHING to have access to the game. Sure, people are paying for it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's totally free for the guy who chooses to pay nothing.m The free to play gamer player doesn't evne have to log in.

The EVE player is either paying with MONEY or TIME (even if it's just logging on long enough to change around market orders). For the The EVE player who pays for game time with plex, he has to log in at least long enough to apply the plex he aquired through ingame effort.

in other words, a F2P game player doesn't even have to play to stay in the game, an EVe player using plex has to "Play to Stay".

Why is that hard for some people to undeerstand?
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2013-07-17 00:21:44 UTC
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?


Because that's not a F2P model, any more than buying game time cards at Target with a credit card is F2P. Just because the funds come from an indirect source doesn't make my subscription free.

People are trying to "counter it" because it's dead wrong, obviously.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#264 - 2013-07-17 01:10:02 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
The primary revenue models for MMOs are F2P and Subscription.

[…]

Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than my paying for your lunch changes the revenue model of the restaurant. Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than ordering the same meal every time you go to a restaurant turn the restaurant into a prix-fix place.
Your actions (and the actions of other players) do not change the fundamental business model of the game.
I think is probably the thing that trips people up.

F2P is not a payment scheme; it's a business model. They're (incorrectly) looking at it from the customer perspective, when the company perspective is the only thing that is relevant. They get stuck on “I don't pay” and think this means it's free to play, when F2P is really determined by the question “how do we (the company) get paid?”.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#265 - 2013-07-17 03:41:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The primary revenue models for MMOs are F2P and Subscription.

[…]

Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than my paying for your lunch changes the revenue model of the restaurant. Allowing another player to pay your subscription fee for you does not make the game a F2P any more than ordering the same meal every time you go to a restaurant turn the restaurant into a prix-fix place.
Your actions (and the actions of other players) do not change the fundamental business model of the game.
I think is probably the thing that trips people up.

F2P is not a payment scheme; it's a business model. They're (incorrectly) looking at it from the customer perspective, when the company perspective is the only thing that is relevant. They get stuck on “I don't pay” and think this means it's free to play, when F2P is really determined by the question “how do we (the company) get paid?”.
Except the person that buys the PLEX with ISK does not spend money to play the game. That is F2P. Just because EVE has a subscription model does not mean that it can't also have a F2P model, which is what the ISK for PLEX scheme is. Plenty of F2P games also have a premium(paid) service. That does not change the fact that if you do not require money coming out of your pocket to play it is F2P. It is the same way with free access and a cash shop. Just because in your head they are different, it does not change the fact that someone else is paying so that you can play free.

That is all F2P is, someone else paying for you to play the game. If no one is paying then no one is going to be playing the game. It's as simple as that.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#266 - 2013-07-17 03:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Schalac wrote:
Except the person that buys the PLEX with ISK does not spend money to play the game. That is F2P.
No, it's not. It's just a different payment option for your subscription.

Quote:
Just because EVE has a subscription model does not mean that it can't also have a F2P model
Actually, it rather does, since the two business models operate on completely opposite principles: one requires payment to access the game, the other does not. Somewhere in-between is the “freemium” model: no payment is required to access a small part of the game, but payment is required to access the rest of it. Of the three, EVE uses the subscription model, and only the subscription model.

Quote:
which is what the ISK for PLEX scheme is.
There is no “ISK for PLEX scheme”. You can't give CCP ISK in return for a PLEX, and likewise, you can give CCP a PLEX in return for ISK. All you can do is trade your (paid-for) game time against the (paid-for) game time of other players.

Quote:
That is all F2P is, someone else paying for you to play the game.
No, that is not F2P. F2P is a business model where you earn your money, not from giving people access to your game, but from people buying ancillary services. What you're describing is patronage, which is a completely different thing.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#267 - 2013-07-17 08:48:10 UTC
Semantic quibbles apart, whether we call PLEX "F2P" or not makes no difference to the way it actually works. And the way it actually works is so ridiculously much better for EVE, for CCP and for the players that I find it hard to credit that anyone would think that a traditional F2P/cash shop model would be a preferrable alternative. The only people who'd benefit from such a change would be botters

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#268 - 2013-07-17 09:31:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Semantic quibbles apart, whether we call PLEX "F2P" or not makes no difference to the way it actually works. And the way it actually works is so ridiculously much better for EVE, for CCP and for the players that I find it hard to credit that anyone would think that a traditional F2P/cash shop model would be a preferrable alternative. The only people who'd benefit from such a change would be botters



Other than the fact that it's fun to watch morons spin in circles and sputter as they try to redefine what the F2P business model is, I'd say it's important because "F2P" has a certain reputation attached to it in a lot of gamer circles, right up there with "Microtransactions" and "DLC." Calling EVE a F2P is flat-out wrong, it is a subscription-based game.

If my friend wanted me to play WoW, and offered to pay my subscription to that game forever, would that mean WoW is F2P? Of course not. It may be free for me, but it is not F2P.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#269 - 2013-07-17 11:54:12 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Except the person that buys the PLEX with ISK does not spend money to play the game. That is F2P. Just because EVE has a subscription model does not mean that it can't also have a F2P model, which is what the ISK for PLEX scheme is. Plenty of F2P games also have a premium(paid) service. That does not change the fact that if you do not require money coming out of your pocket to play it is F2P. It is the same way with free access and a cash shop. Just because in your head they are different, it does not change the fact that someone else is paying so that you can play free.

That is all F2P is, someone else paying for you to play the game. If no one is paying then no one is going to be playing the game. It's as simple as that.


It's funny to watch someone completely miss the point over and over again...till it gets sad lol. Tippia and about a dozen others explained why PLEX doesn't mean F2P. A "free to play game" requires a person to do NOTHING in order to play. EVE requires you to pay something to play (either money or time). Time is not free.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2013-07-17 14:36:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Why does it have to be a Western MMO Ruby? Eve is not a western mmo (even though they do have offices in the u.s).


I consider Iceland to be part of the Western world, both socially (being that the population is almost entirely of European descent), geographically (being west of England), and Economically (being part of the European Economic Area).

I specify Western because the MMOs availiable in Korea and the PRC are simply not competing in the same market as, say, EVE or WOW, both Geographically and because virtually all are F2P games. But if you find a Eastern MMO that is unambiguously subscription-based* that has more active subscriptions than EVE, please do share.

So why don't I amend my challenge. Find a Subscription MMO that has more active subscribers than EVE that is not WoW. And then EVE will be the third largest subscription MMO in the world rather than the second, a sure sign of failure.

*Turns out Aion is now F2P. Who knew.


But I think you may be missing the point. My point is that EVE is not a small MMO. It is, in fact, one of the largest subscription MMOs in the world. This fact is obscured by the disproportionate size and success of WoW, and the occasional blockbuster MMO that fades out after a year or so (i.e. SWOTOR), making some people come to the rather silly conclusion that half a million accounts is "small."



Yea I definitely agree with all your points, having played quite a few mmos over the years. I was just curious about the distinction.

There are some "eastern" (asian) mmos that boast over a million subscribers (paid subs) even though they also have diffrent and various f2p/pay2win/etc models in place (There's some mmo that's referred to B&S which I have no idea what it stands for that has over 1.3m subscribers paying their hard earned won as of last year).

Aion had a healthy start, but started to fail for sort of the same reasons Eve does well; the hardcore nature of always pvp. They tried to cater to people that play a softer more pve game, and basically got squashed like a nut.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2013-07-17 14:45:58 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Except the person that buys the PLEX with ISK does not spend money to play the game. That is F2P. Just because EVE has a subscription model does not mean that it can't also have a F2P model, which is what the ISK for PLEX scheme is. Plenty of F2P games also have a premium(paid) service. That does not change the fact that if you do not require money coming out of your pocket to play it is F2P. It is the same way with free access and a cash shop. Just because in your head they are different, it does not change the fact that someone else is paying so that you can play free.

That is all F2P is, someone else paying for you to play the game. If no one is paying then no one is going to be playing the game. It's as simple as that.



This would be an technically correct statement. Except for the second part following the underlined part.

It CAN have a f2p model.

It just doesn't. It has a subscription model.

Subscription.

NOT open registration. SUBSCRIPTION. That is the opposite of free to play.

Stop using the word "free" in ways that don't mean what it is. It costs you isk to buy a plex ingame. That isk can only be achieved by playing the game. Which requires a subscription. Which requires a PAYMENT (cash or isk) to proceed to play.

If you have 0 isk, and 0 cash and wish to play.. you are destined for trial account stardom or hope someone breaks the EULA by letting you on their account.

Because you won't be allowed to play for free on your main account.

Now, trial accounts.

That's a f2p model.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#272 - 2013-07-17 16:26:54 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yea I definitely agree with all your points, having played quite a few mmos over the years. I was just curious about the distinction.

There are some "eastern" (asian) mmos that boast over a million subscribers (paid subs) even though they also have diffrent and various f2p/pay2win/etc models in place (There's some mmo that's referred to B&S which I have no idea what it stands for that has over 1.3m subscribers paying their hard earned won as of last year).


If they allow you to play without a subscription, that's the same as a WoT Premium account. I.E. Not a Subscription.
They're different models and compete in different marketplaces, so it's unreasonable to directly compare numbers (for this purpose, I'd certainly try to compare the numbers if I were going to invest).
There are MMOs in the PRC that have PCUs over 500k. It's a different model.

I would like to see sources for the number of premium accounts in those MMOs, but I understand that they're hard to research.

Quote:
Aion had a healthy start, but started to fail for sort of the same reasons Eve does well; the hardcore nature of always pvp. They tried to cater to people that play a softer more pve game, and basically got squashed like a nut.


In the West, WOW has the PvE market pretty well cornered. Trying to compete with it is a failed plan.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-07-17 16:35:42 UTC
This thread just keeps on delivering.


Quote:
In the West, WOW has the PvE market pretty well cornered. Trying to compete with it is a failed plan.


This is the advantage of being the first elephant in the room. It's hard to find room for another elephant.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2013-07-17 17:34:57 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yea I definitely agree with all your points, having played quite a few mmos over the years. I was just curious about the distinction.

There are some "eastern" (asian) mmos that boast over a million subscribers (paid subs) even though they also have diffrent and various f2p/pay2win/etc models in place (There's some mmo that's referred to B&S which I have no idea what it stands for that has over 1.3m subscribers paying their hard earned won as of last year).


If they allow you to play without a subscription, that's the same as a WoT Premium account. I.E. Not a Subscription.
They're different models and compete in different marketplaces, so it's unreasonable to directly compare numbers (for this purpose, I'd certainly try to compare the numbers if I were going to invest).
There are MMOs in the PRC that have PCUs over 500k. It's a different model.

I would like to see sources for the number of premium accounts in those MMOs, but I understand that they're hard to research.

Quote:
Aion had a healthy start, but started to fail for sort of the same reasons Eve does well; the hardcore nature of always pvp. They tried to cater to people that play a softer more pve game, and basically got squashed like a nut.


In the West, WOW has the PvE market pretty well cornered. Trying to compete with it is a failed plan.



The closest thing I could think of was DCUO, even though it wouldn't be accurate. And that's because they have premium accounts that can access all content (and future content), they have expansions/addons that you can buy singularly, and they are free to play (limited bank slots, content, etc).

You can also pay straight from a credit card, or using SOE points. SOE points being able to be applied to ANY game and also have specials (like buying a 2for1; buy 2,000 SOE credits, get 2,000 credits free) that also apply to ALL SOE as it is not game specific.

DCUO is such a weird anomaly though, but also lends to various different business models to help explain various ways of which you can play.

Any rate, I'm not disagreeing with you, like I said originally.



And yea, Tera tried to compete with that pve market. Look how what happened there.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#275 - 2013-07-18 01:10:43 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
The closest thing I could think of was DCUO, even though it wouldn't be accurate. And that's because they have premium accounts that can access all content (and future content), they have expansions/addons that you can buy singularly, and they are free to play (limited bank slots, content, etc).

You can also pay straight from a credit card, or using SOE points. SOE points being able to be applied to ANY game and also have specials (like buying a 2for1; buy 2,000 SOE credits, get 2,000 credits free) that also apply to ALL SOE as it is not game specific.

DCUO is such a weird anomaly though, but also lends to various different business models to help explain various ways of which you can play.


Looking at the Wikipedia for it, looks like SOE considers it to have gone F2P less than a year after launch. But I have very little direct contact with SOE games (Besides some Planetside 2 points from buying a graphics card). So it may very well be too funky to classify.

Most F2P games have "premium accounts" so I'm not sure I would call it a hybrid.

I think we can make a decent flowchart for classification (and I invite suggestions for improvement):

10: Can an account be active indefinitely without the company receiving a periodic fee for that account? IF Yes GOTO 20 ELSE GOTO 30
20: Its revenue model is F2P
30: Does the game have a substantial cash shop? IF Yes GOTO 40, ELSE GOTO 50
40: Its revenue model is Evil Double Dip Monstrosity
50: Its revenue model is Subscription

The difference between 40 and 50 is somewhat subjective. (Ignore the Haters, GOTO is lord)
And I'm not sure where to put the issue of paid for expansions, though I don't think it's an identifying factor for anything.

Quote:
Any rate, I'm not disagreeing with you, like I said originally.
Didn't think you were. I was trying to express a related opinion, and that's where it fit.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2013-07-18 10:34:28 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Look at the ignorant assumption you make. WHY is 500k playing a game that isn't for everyone a bad thing?


Because you're too stupid to even understand the gaming industry.

A MMO has to clear 1 million players to operate without going in the red, and PROFIT (that's the minimum to pay for the hardware, devs and marketing). Once they dip below that they can't self-sustain, and go F2P or PLEX.

You can look around even here on how CCP operates on a shoestring, because 500k players doesn't pay the bills.

Need the players to be over 1 million. 2 million to have the innovation and attract the talent (what person with talent wants to work for a belly up game?).

So no, 500k isn't good enough.

Pure garbage with no basis in reality.

Why does an MMO have to clear 1 million players to operate? What are the fixed costs and overheads that result you in making that claim? Please provide numbers.

Going on the above, please provide your special reasoning on how EVE has managed to stay in operations with even less than 500k for the 10 years prior to this one.
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#277 - 2013-07-18 10:46:48 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
plex accounts are paid


Paid sporadically like the F2P model. PLEX is F2P. Take the window dressing off of it, it operates just the same.

Alt accounts (the m-a-n-y alt accounts that exist in EvE) are operated solely on PLEXing. So in the end, it's still a game for whales.

Do you even understand how PLEX work?

Here's how it works, simplified down into easy enough to understand language:

Player A and Player B are both active in EVE.

Situation 1:
Player A and B both pay for subscription with credit card/PayPal/whatever on a monthly basis.
Result:
CCP gets $15 x 2 = $30 monthly
Player A & B each pay $15 monthly

Situation 2:
Player A pays on a monthly basis, Player B pays for his subscription by PLEX bought and sold by player A.
Result:
CCP gets $15 x 1=$15 (from player A), and $35 / 2 = $17.50 (from player B), meaning overall, they get $32.50
Player A pays $15 + ($35 / 2) = $15 + $17.50 = $32.50
Player B pays nothing in RL cash.

In both cases, CCP takes a subscription fee, which comes to almost the same amount, barring variables such as monthly/tri-monthly/annual subscriptions.

While 1 player may play for 'free', this doesn't mean the game is free to play, it just means someone else is paying for your subscription in the form of a PLEX, in return for ISK, when PLEX is sold.

In any case, no ISK is created from selling a PLEX. ISK is transferred, and some of it lost to taxes and whatnot.

Hope that's clear enough for you.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2013-07-18 11:28:26 UTC
lollerwaffle wrote:
Do you even understand how PLEX work?


Here, read (maybe difficult) but try...

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72593

Everyone but their dead uncle understands how PLEX works, except for trolls and those who don't like the F2P label.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2013-07-18 11:37:08 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
This thread just keeps on delivering.


Quote:
In the West, WOW has the PvE market pretty well cornered. Trying to compete with it is a failed plan.


This is the advantage of being the first elephant in the room. It's hard to find room for another elephant.


Actually, the first elephant was EQ that ushered in the MMO craze at the time. EQII didn't live up to expectations, and WoW took off as a result (doesn't hurt to have an offline player base already keen on the Warcraft lore...let alone already having a distribution network in place).

Can't beat WoW because of that built in player base, that also plays StarCraft and Diablo. When Diablo III was announced Blizzard used WoW as a means for players to get it for free (buy 1 year sub of WoW, get Diablo III for free deal). Millions of players to sell a game over night, let alone funding their flagship, too. Blizz can sell a purple pony and in 1 day make more money than CCP for months. That's the power of Blizzard when it comes to MMOs...those millions that play their games.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-07-18 11:44:53 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
lollerwaffle wrote:
Do you even understand how PLEX work?


Here, read (maybe difficult) but try...

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72593

Everyone but their dead uncle understands how PLEX works, except for trolls and those who don't like the F2P label.

What does that article have to do with anything we're discussing now? The fact that someone titled it 'almost free-to-play' means that it's correct?

Oh noes, someone wrote something on the internet and I read it there so it must be true!

Still seems like you're the 'dead uncle' here then? Or troll? Or you don't like the F2P label?