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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2013-07-16 13:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Malcanis wrote:
I'll happily call PLEX a specialised variant of "F2P" if it makes anyone happy. Indeed, I'd go further and say that it's the best form of F2P. (You can't say that "it's not free because someone else pays"; in a scarcity economy "someone else pays" is what free means)

The PLEX system is what it is, though, and people trying to claim that because rocks are grey and elephants are grey, therefore rocks must be elephants are just making themselves look even sillier than normal.


Unfortunately that conflates two very different meanings of the phrase "free to play". There is the meaning wherein it is free for me, the individual, to play the game (discounting the opportunity costs I mentioned earlier) which is what PLEX provides, and then there is the business model of Free to Play in which I can play, for nothing at all, with no opportunity cost.

The difference is that opportunity cost - a true F2P game doesn't have it. I can log in, play the game doing whatever I want, and keeping all proceeds of my time spent strictly for myself. No matter what I choose to do in the game, I never have to provide the results of those actions to someone else in order to keep playing the game.

In Eve, if I want to individually play for free, I have to grind ISK and give it to someone else, meaning I cannot spend that time doing something for myself and I cannot spend that ISK on something I want. It's like working to pay your rent. I can technically say that I live in my house for free, as long as I define free to mean my boss gives me some money every month to give to the bank so they don't kick me out of it. Paying to play with PLEX in Eve is basically turning Eve into a (badly) paying job (unless you're running an alliance in which case it's simply an exercise in masochism). You may not be paying with RL money, but you're still paying to play the game.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2013-07-16 14:09:27 UTC
What I don't get, is how you are required to provide billing information to play Eve past a trial account, but you are not required to have accurate account/registration information.

This literally muddies up any water on how many players own how many accounts when you put plex as a method of payment.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-07-16 14:53:50 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
What I don't get, is how you are required to provide billing information to play Eve past a trial account, but you are not required to have accurate account/registration information.

This literally muddies up any water on how many players own how many accounts when you put plex as a method of payment.



Since every subscribed, active account is a paid account, from CCP's perspective it's immaterial. They are all paying accounts, and that's really the only number the bean counters care about.

However, CCP can link accounts via IP address, if they really cared to (though this is an imperfect method, given the nature of IP address management, especially in very high density populations such as colleges).

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#244 - 2013-07-16 15:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Verunae Caseti
Murk Paradox wrote:

This literally muddies up any water on how many players own how many accounts when you put plex as a method of payment


EVE's play and payment model is such that the number of "actual players" is not as important a metric as it is to other MMO's and especially to games that are actually F2P. CCP is much more focused on number of active accounts (and they may be unique in this regard).

EVE's skill and training system is such that viable alts must be accounted for. Unlike WoW and most maintsream MMOs, you can't just stack Alts to the ceiling on a single active account and try out every race and class combination known to man for the cost of a single account. If you want a 20M+ combat pilot and a 20M+ industry pilot and you want them doing different things in the game at roughly the same time, you're goin to have to account for both characters - whether that means 1 PLEX and 1 payment or 2 payments or 2 PLEX, to CCP you are, fiscally, 2 accounts.

Yes, there's some value in knowing that you're actually one human, because then CCP can correctly assess the risk of losing you entirely (and conversely the value of keeing you) as roughly twice that of a single account player, but really when it comes to long-term plans and design choices, it's not as important because there are a spectrum of possibilities therein. You could decide to cancel just 1 account, and start rolling as just a 1 PLEX or 1 payment entity; or you could drop both accounts; or add accounts, etc.

From a large picture, long-term viability for CCP comes from number of active accounts. They need, let's say, 300,000 accounts to stay financially viable. Whether that comes from 150,000 players with an average of 2 accounts each or 200,000 players with an average of 1.5 accounts each, it really doesn't matter. Not for CCP because EVE thrives via subscriptions and PLEX demand - and those are driven up by active accounts, not by beating hearts. Convincing a portion of their playerbase to add an account is just as great a financial success as attracting new players.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#245 - 2013-07-16 15:12:38 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Cutting to the chase, as this is just wordsmithing...

And did you bother to read the disclaimer on the actual site?

So don't bet your house on that data.


In the blog, he provides sourcing for many of his data points.

So where's your better source? You don't get to dismiss a source out of hand without providing a better source.

Quote:
Or you can look at another EA game and learn otherwise...


Ok, a single example of a yet-unreleased MMO may need 1 million subscriptions to be profitable. So?

You claimed that all MMOs need 1 million subscriptions to be profitable. And, since we're talking about EVE that EVE, specifically, needs 1 million subscriptions to be profitable.
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Because you're too stupid to even understand the gaming industry.

A MMO has to clear 1 million players to operate without going in the red, and PROFIT (that's the minimum to pay for the hardware, devs and marketing). Once they dip below that they can't self-sustain, and go F2P or PLEX.


In their earnings statement, EA told their investors that SWOTOR is substantially profitable at 500k subscribers. If you can show that they're lying, you should probably grab an EA investor and negotiate a finders fee for the large settlement they'd be getting from the investor lawsuit.

Specific to EVE, you're claiming that CCP's investors have been throwing money into a sinking company for over a decade without it ever showing anything near a profit. That's patently ridiculous.

PLEX does not get significantly consumed except by paying for a subscription. EVE's 500k subs include all PLEXed accounts as well as all traditionally billed accounts. While PLEXed accounts earn CCP more money that traditionally billed accounts, it's not double the amount of money, and PLEXed accounts do not represent 100% of the population (the Forge market for plex is about 100k units/month), so since you're claiming that 1 million subs is the minimum to keep the lights on, where's the shortfall being made up?

And, ignoring all that, find a western, subscription MMO besides WOW that has 1 million subscribers. Or are you claiming that every single subscription MMO besides WOW is massively unprofitable?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#246 - 2013-07-16 15:19:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I'll happily call PLEX a specialised variant of "F2P" if it makes anyone happy. Indeed, I'd go further and say that it's the best form of F2P. (You can't say that "it's not free because someone else pays"; in a scarcity economy "someone else pays" is what free means)


Yes, that's what "free" means, but an individual playing for "free" does not mean a game is a "F2P game."

F2P is a payment model. It's a business model. It means something in the industry - namely that players can have accounts that are indefinitely active with full access to the game and no payment obligation of any kind, be that virtual otherwise.

If your game does not meet this standard, it is not a F2P game. So you can "happily" call it whatever you want, but know that if you call it F2P you will be wrong.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#247 - 2013-07-16 15:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
All this back-n-forth about F2P / Not F2P is so much semantic bullcrap.

Doesn't matter if any one individual, or group of individuals, are playing solely based on in-game currency. *Someone* is paying for their time. Each month that each non-trial account is active is directly linked to real money flowing into CCP's bank.
End of story.

Most everything in this thread is basically mental self-pleasure: It may make the poster feel good, but it produces nothing of value, means nothing, and has only the most tenuous reflection in reality.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2013-07-16 15:26:09 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Most everything in this thread is basically mental self-pleasure: Is may make the poster feel good, but it produces nothing of value...


I did you a favor and trimmed that down so you can go post it in every thread that has ever been posted to a General Dicsussion forum for any game, event, hobby or topic since circa 1991.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2013-07-16 15:47:30 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

This literally muddies up any water on how many players own how many accounts when you put plex as a method of payment


EVE's play and payment model is such that the number of "actual players" is not as important a metric as it is to other MMO's and especially to games that are actually F2P. CCP is much more focused on number of active accounts (and they may be unique in this regard).

EVE's skill and training system is such that viable alts must be accounted for. Unlike WoW and most maintsream MMOs, you can't just stack Alts to the ceiling on a single active account and try out every race and class combination known to man for the cost of a single account. If you want a 20M+ combat pilot and a 20M+ industry pilot and you want them doing different things in the game at roughly the same time, you're goin to have to account for both characters - whether that means 1 PLEX and 1 payment or 2 payments or 2 PLEX, to CCP you are, fiscally, 2 accounts.

Yes, there's some value in knowing that you're actually one human, because then CCP can correctly assess the risk of losing you entirely (and conversely the value of keeing you) as roughly twice that of a single account player, but really when it comes to long-term plans and design choices, it's not as important because there are a spectrum of possibilities therein. You could decide to cancel just 1 account, and start rolling as just a 1 PLEX or 1 payment entity; or you could drop both accounts; or add accounts, etc.

From a large picture, long-term viability for CCP comes from number of active accounts. They need, let's say, 300,000 accounts to stay financially viable. Whether that comes from 150,000 players with an average of 2 accounts each or 200,000 players with an average of 1.5 accounts each, it really doesn't matter. Not for CCP because EVE thrives via subscriptions and PLEX demand - and those are driven up by active accounts, not by beating hearts. Convincing a portion of their playerbase to add an account is just as great a financial success as attracting new players.



Yea I understand the math. I don't understand the claim of saying "play with 489,981 other players in this great game of Eve", because of advertising, or even falsified information on the login screen... accurate information to the existing playerbase is kind of important for reasons of credibility.

I personally don't care what the bean counters "know" or have access to.

I care when CCP blatantly ignores the difference between player and account yet encourages multiboxing.

I also care when forum veterans claim that citing data and factual information is important in regards to a topic involving a company who doesn't distinguish between the 2.

As a player, I don't care how many active accounts there are. I care about how many players there are.

This is a mmo after all =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2013-07-16 16:03:18 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


As a player, I don't care how many active accounts there are. I care about how many players there are.

This is a mmo after all =)


If there are 50,000 accounts currently logged in, and you're interacting with, for example, 10 of them, is there any qualitative difference in it being 10 different people or 6 different people and a couple of alts?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2013-07-16 16:03:59 UTC
Why does it have to be a Western MMO Ruby? Eve is not a western mmo (even though they do have offices in the u.s).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2013-07-16 16:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
De'Veldrin wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


As a player, I don't care how many active accounts there are. I care about how many players there are.

This is a mmo after all =)


If there are 50,000 accounts currently logged in, and you're interacting with, for example, 10 of them, is there any qualitative difference in it being 10 different people or 6 different people and a couple of alts?



In a game boasting of 2,000 vs 2,000 people in one fight? Yes.

In a game of trade hubs with spams of sales and specials and contracts and advertisements? Yes. (not to mention the target rich environment of victims).

Because, to use your example, I am not interacting with only 10 of them.

If I can only interact with 10 players out of the 50,000 accounts logged in... there's a problem.

ESPECIALLY given the fact that these systems need advance notice to be reinforced, or have a hard cap on # of pilots in a system.. numbers REALLY do matter.

Alot.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#253 - 2013-07-16 16:35:53 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Most everything in this thread is basically mental self-pleasure: Is may make the poster feel good, but it produces nothing of value...


I did you a favor and trimmed that down so you can go post it in every thread that has ever been posted to a General Dicsussion forum for any game, event, hobby or topic since circa 1991.

Hah.

Perhaps it should be in the masthead of each forum...

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#254 - 2013-07-16 20:23:58 UTC
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#255 - 2013-07-16 20:26:18 UTC
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?

Problem: You forgot that PLEX comes from... REAL currency! Now: Where's the 'free' in that?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2013-07-16 20:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?



It always makes me feel better when I'm right.

Eve isn't F2p.

I can prove it too! Or rather, I can have YOU prove it if you like.

Here's what you do-

Go to Eve's official website (I won't even link it, use google or the links at the top of the page).

Then create a new account.

Activate said account by bypassing any trial period.

Do NOT use any form of payment.

Let me know when you have completed the registration process and are successfully logged in. (All steps must be completed before any isk can be transferred, remember, this is about creating a new account!).

EDIT- I realize this might not be the exact response to your "isk for plex" argument... but plex is plex is plex no matter how you slice it. You CAN play without paying out of your own pocket, but not for free.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#257 - 2013-07-16 21:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Murk Paradox wrote:
Why does it have to be a Western MMO Ruby? Eve is not a western mmo (even though they do have offices in the u.s).


I consider Iceland to be part of the Western world, both socially (being that the population is almost entirely of European descent), geographically (being west of England), and Economically (being part of the European Economic Area).

I specify Western because the MMOs availiable in Korea and the PRC are simply not competing in the same market as, say, EVE or WOW, both Geographically and because virtually all are F2P games. But if you find a Eastern MMO that is unambiguously subscription-based* that has more active subscriptions than EVE, please do share.

So why don't I amend my challenge. Find a Subscription MMO that has more active subscribers than EVE that is not WoW. And then EVE will be the third largest subscription MMO in the world rather than the second, a sure sign of failure.

*Turns out Aion is now F2P. Who knew.


But I think you may be missing the point. My point is that EVE is not a small MMO. It is, in fact, one of the largest subscription MMOs in the world. This fact is obscured by the disproportionate size and success of WoW, and the occasional blockbuster MMO that fades out after a year or so (i.e. SWOTOR), making some people come to the rather silly conclusion that half a million accounts is "small."

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#258 - 2013-07-16 22:03:13 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?

Problem: You forgot that PLEX comes from... REAL currency! Now: Where's the 'free' in that?
And the people that use the cash shop in other F2P MMOs pay your sub in those games. All F2P games make money from somewhere, if they didn't they wouldn't exist. ISK for PLEX is a F2P model. Argue it all you want, but you are wrong.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#259 - 2013-07-16 22:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Schalac wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?

Problem: You forgot that PLEX comes from... REAL currency! Now: Where's the 'free' in that?
And the people that use the cash shop in other F2P MMOs pay your sub in those games. All F2P games make money from somewhere, if they didn't they wouldn't exist. ISK for PLEX is a F2P model. Argue it all you want, but you are wrong.


Nope.

Free 2 Play games' cash shop provides the money to keep the servers open. Servers which are open to everyone, regardless of whether they've paid.

Subscription MMOs' subscription fees provide the money to keep the servers open. Servers which are open to Subscribers only. The company collects a subscription fee every period.

EVE allows you to pay for somebody else's subscription fee in exchange for in-game consideration from that person (or a broker). In other words, the company is still collecting a subscription fee from each and every account for access to the servers.

How does the ability to pay someone else's subscription fee suddenly make the server open to everyone?
How does my paying for your lunch suddenly turn the restaurant into a free to eatery?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#260 - 2013-07-16 22:26:06 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Schalac wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Schalac wrote:
ISK for PLEX is definitely a F2P model. Why anyone is trying to counter that it is lost on me. Does it make you feel better to say that EVE isn't F2P?

Problem: You forgot that PLEX comes from... REAL currency! Now: Where's the 'free' in that?
And the people that use the cash shop in other F2P MMOs pay your sub in those games. All F2P games make money from somewhere, if they didn't they wouldn't exist. ISK for PLEX is a F2P model. Argue it all you want, but you are wrong.


Nope.

Free 2 Play games' cash shop provides the money to keep the servers open. Servers which are open to everyone, regardless of whether they've paid.

Subscription MMOs' subscription fees provide the money to keep the servers open. Servers which are open to Subscribers only. The company collects a subscription fee every period.

EVE allows you to pay for somebody else's subscription fee in exchange for in-game consideration from that person (or a broker). In other words, the company is still collecting a subscription fee from each and every account for access to the servers.

How does the ability to pay someone else's subscription fee suddenly make the server open to everyone?
How does my paying for your lunch suddenly turn the restaurant into a free to eatery?
And if nobody uses the cash shop in other F2P games guess how fast they shut down and noone can access the servers.

F2P is a gimmick. It makes you feel like you don't have to spend any money on the game to play it. Yet studies have shown that people that play F2P games normally end up spending more per year in a cash shop compared to a monthly subscription based game. When they do in fact use the cash shop.

So does that mean that F2P is really P2P? Because you have people spending enough money to cover more peoples subscription. Their allotted storage space on the server for their character?

Money rules the world, and all MMOs "F2P/P2P" need money to operate. That money comes from subscriptions, which in a F2P game is what you sign up for when you make an account for that game. The way they collect the money is just different from a time allotted payment plan. ISK for PLEX is a F2P model along those same lines. So who are you trying to convince that it isn't? Yourself or others?

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac