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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#161 - 2013-07-15 19:51:34 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
I'm not a Goon, I have no stake in it.

Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).



Name one western subscription MMO besides WOW that has better subscription numbers than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO anywhere that has shown year on year subscription growth for a decade other than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO that tried to compete with WOW by copying WOW that's still significant (and source your data).

Show your data* indicating that the average number of accounts per player is growing in EVE. I mean, surely to back all your claims that EVE's only attracting more alts rather than new players you have some evidence, right? Right?


*Please remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.


You just asked for evidence from someone who doesn't use evidence in formulating opinions lol. Good luck. Big smile
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2013-07-15 19:54:40 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:

You've lost me, what is primitive? Clearly you are just another kid (or an adult with very poor language skills) and as you want to be spoon fed PVE probably not far from WoW. Why should we adapt to your needs when most of the games in this genre are filled with that PVE grinding crap and you could swap to any one of them? Why can't Eve be an interesting game that actually requires the player to engage their brain occasionally?
Decent PvE and engaging ones brain aren't mutually exclusive. Infact decent PvE should encourage engagement and thought. And being part of this game of all games it should probably draw deeper interaction with others in the game naturally.

Yet for some reason in a multiplayer sandbox people still seem to want a element to remain which doesn't promote social interaction or mental activity while preaching about how those who do ask for improvements should go use our brains and make our own content with others.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2013-07-15 20:05:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, I challenge you, get on down to Fountain and tell me "PvP players" don't want a challenge. The nullsec alliances are tearing each other apart to the tune of billions of isk per day, and they've been more or less evenly matched for close to a month now.




That's a hard topic to define gameplay. Those kind of fights are based on strategy and risk adversity to NOT escalate and bring your supers knowing whichever side does the other side will batphone.

Large fights (also because of tidi.. oh wait.. is tidi pve or pvp? lol) seriously hamper your performance therefore its going to be difficult to base your level of commitment on skilll.

Just the fight by itself is going to be challenging.

You can however, simply fly down to Schoorasana or Gratesier and roam around as a solo pilot harassing FW pilots and see what happens.

Betcha find a challenge!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2013-07-15 20:07:50 UTC
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
500k players isn't growing, Tippia, that's surviving.
500k players up from 400k is growing just fine.


In about the same time frame, Blizzard peaked at around 10 mil players. Sure, some of those were single players with multiple accounts too, but it's 10million accounts. (But Panda really killed them, I think they're down to between 5 and 8 mil accounts, now. I don't know. I haven't played WoW in over a year.) So, although going from 400K to 500K is growing, to have reached 500K is..... meh.

On the other hand.... Now that I think about it... Blizzard's WoW was kind of special. Not many MMO's got more than 500K to 1mil accounts. Eh?

I take it back. 500K is awesome! Good job CCP!

I'm rambling, now. I'll stop.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
So the OP's complaint still stands: The means to make PvE fun and engaging exists. That it has not been done can only be attributed to lack of interest or lack of skill on behalf of the devs. I'm guessing both.


I wish I remember where it was that I read this. Somewhere in this forum.... EVE Online is a gigantic old program with a gazillion lines of code. To bring the modern intelligent NPC AI would mean recoding much of those lines of code. In other words, a huge game overhaul. I don't think it'll happen anytime soon.



Everquest, which predates both WoW and Eve, had I think 3mil accounts at around the same time Eve launched.

Not sure on the current subscribers now (they went F2p) but they are still in existence and going strong.

/shrug

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#165 - 2013-07-15 20:07:59 UTC
PvE could be made much more fun, and it really wouldn't be that hard. Wormhole rats are much more fun to fight than l4 missions.

PvP needs to be more profitable anyway. Bounties payed out by your faction for killing enemy ships in FW (on top of LP) would be one way. NPC bs is worth 1m, Player bs would be worth 10, etc.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2013-07-15 20:08:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
I'm not a Goon, I have no stake in it.

Other than games being GOOD and ATTRACTS more PLAYERS (not more IsBoxers).



Name one western subscription MMO besides WOW that has better subscription numbers than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO anywhere that has shown year on year subscription growth for a decade other than EVE (and source your data).
Name one MMO that tried to compete with WOW by copying WOW that's still significant (and source your data).

Show your data* indicating that the average number of accounts per player is growing in EVE. I mean, surely to back all your claims that EVE's only attracting more alts rather than new players you have some evidence, right? Right?


*Please remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.


You just asked for evidence from someone who doesn't use evidence in formulating opinions lol. Good luck. Big smile


I am pretty sure he also won't get an aswer since I'm willing to bet even money that Ace has both me and Ruby blocked.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-07-15 20:11:02 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
I am pretty sure he also won't get an aswer since I'm willing to bet even money that Ace has both me and Ruby blocked.


Why would I? Got to have some entertainment on these forums, right? Cool

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2013-07-15 20:15:25 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Everquest, which predates both WoW and Eve, had I think 3mil accounts at around the same time Eve launched.

Not sure on the current subscribers now (they went F2p) but they are still in existence and going strong.

/shrug


Largest MMO at that time was EQII (coming off of EQ) with a player base of around 500k (2005 showed 500k).

Big in MMOs didn't occur until WoW surged forward in 2006 with the release of The Burning Crusade. Peaking to around 12 million in 2010 in the Wrath of the Lich King.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Venom13Games
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-07-15 20:16:46 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
I am pretty sure he also won't get an aswer since I'm willing to bet even money that Ace has both me and Ruby blocked.


Why would I? Got to have some entertainment on these forums, right? Cool


I thought that was you?

Well, now I'm confused What?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2013-07-15 20:18:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The thing is, I'm talking about EVE, not WoW. If you're going to make sweeping statements about how people play EVE, cite EVE examples, not examples from some unrelated and irrelevant game. I know entirely what I'm talking about, and you have shown at every turn that you do not.


EvE players are no different from any other game nor how they think or act. Do you know why? Because those same players play OTHER games.


[Citation Needed]



Citation granted.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#171 - 2013-07-15 20:19:08 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
I am pretty sure he also won't get an aswer since I'm willing to bet even money that Ace has both me and Ruby blocked.


Why would I? Got to have some entertainment on these forums, right? Cool


But not evidence, of course. Putting evidence of your wild lies claims on the forums would be crazy.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-07-15 20:21:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
I am pretty sure he also won't get an aswer since I'm willing to bet even money that Ace has both me and Ruby blocked.


Why would I? Got to have some entertainment on these forums, right? Cool


But not evidence, of course. Putting evidence of your wild lies claims on the forums would be crazy.


Apparently we're entertaining Ruby. Maybe we should book some show time in Jita, start our own club that kind of thing?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2013-07-15 20:25:34 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
But not evidence, of course. Putting evidence of your wild lies claims on the forums would be crazy.


Considering that you can Google, Ruby, that evidence is right before your eyes.

Maybe if you take that monocle off, you might can see that, instead of focusing on the losses in Fountain and so butthurt about it. Lol

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2013-07-15 20:30:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[
You're the one who made a claim; why don't you substantiate it?

I mean obviously you didn't simply invent a "fact" to support whatever it was that you were arguing. You must have had information from somewhere. All I want is to see that information too so that I can educate myself and evolve my opinion on the subject.

Is that so wrong of me? Sad



Well, to be fair... it doesn't make him wrong either. It would be nice to see a chart of accounts.

Unfortunately, I'm sure the information is proprietary =(

I dislike any argument involving "numbers" since they will always be inaccurate at best. Especially with Eve since in Eve you can plex your accounts so it doesn't really show "paid" subscriptions... only live accounts that are not trial.

Not that any of this information really matters to players anyways, but I'm digressing (again).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-07-15 20:34:31 UTC
plex accounts are paid
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2013-07-15 20:44:52 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
plex accounts are paid


Paid sporadically like the F2P model. PLEX is F2P. Take the window dressing off of it, it operates just the same.

Alt accounts (the m-a-n-y alt accounts that exist in EvE) are operated solely on PLEXing. So in the end, it's still a game for whales.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2013-07-15 20:54:59 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:

PLEX aren't free. There is no way for a subscribed account to play Eve for free. Someone paid the subscription cost, even if it isn't the account holder.


That's untrue. I can play for free whether you or someone else paid for the plex. Me not paying the plex is what justifies "free".

Quote:

Sweeping generalizations are the enemy of logic and reasoning. If I toss a pumice stone in to a lake and observe its buoyant nature, should I then declare that all rocks can float?



Wellllll.... you wouldn't be wrong. All rocks CAN float. Just not all rocks do.

That's the problem with absolutes; the second you speak in them they come around and bite you in the ass.

Beyond that, you can argue how games are alike and not alike to other games, because all players are the same in the end. They might have subtle differences and tastes, but everyone tends to feel a bit of greed, or bloodlust at some point.

The same reason they are different is also why they are the same.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-07-15 21:00:57 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Based on your completely ridiculous rationale, Justin Bieber is the greatest performer of all time and all bands, songwriters and musicians should take note and follow in his footsteps because they have so much to learn from him, right?


They might. Because what sells Bieber is the marketing. Which is how folks got the iPod and iPad craze.Idea

You can make the best product in the world, but if it's not marketed well, it doesn't sell. If it doesn't sell, there's no money. If there's no money, there's no company.



Confirming Novell operating systems being far superior to Microsoft's.

Damned marketing.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#179 - 2013-07-15 21:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Bull. Utter poppycock. First to market with a superior product is what set Apple's fortunes.


Going nowhere with that argument.

Pointless comeback is pointless.

Nice jam, though.

Quote:
Wouldn't matter, Apple wouldn't exist today if Microsoft didn't see an opportunity.
True, but still pointless - And If you'd read the other posts above, you'd have seen that I've already addressed that.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#180 - 2013-07-15 21:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

Il go ahead and say that ppl play this game because internet space ships..


You don't want internet spaceships though, you want PVE spaceships, there are many alternatives - find them.

Mina Sebiestar wrote:

and since when sandbox mean that primitive game mechanic is valid and anyone saying that it should be improved is just another wow kid?


You've lost me, what is primitive? Clearly you are just another kid (or an adult with very poor language skills) and as you want to be spoon fed PVE probably not far from WoW. Why should we adapt to your needs when most of the games in this genre are filled with that PVE grinding crap and you could swap to any one of them? Why can't Eve be an interesting game that actually requires the player to engage their brain occasionally?

Mina Sebiestar wrote:
I stop using analog tv too maybe you should try it HD/3d/motion sensors..there is whole world out there man trust me...


There are too many things wrong with this analogy to waste my time with but out of curiosity what do you mean by motion sensor, more specifically how do they present an alternative to analog TV?


- you son will not tell me what i want.you can assume and your assumption is wrong.

-pve is primitive and is grinding crap just like all other games out there it already is wow in space improving decade old grind system is something i believe should be done.

-Google motion sensor,

user experience is what is different ie huge hd screen/gesture control/internet and viewing pleasure vs huge box that will radiate your brain much like current missions/mining does XD.

you can also look for pvp only games (stellar impact is one of them) instead whining how pve is killing you or whatever

because eve isn't just pvp game and will never be one.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard