Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The point is just this: JF were added to the game only in 2007-2008 (not sure, I think was with Trinity); since then 0.0. logistic has been progressively oversimplified. But before JF (and logistic trivialization) null sec already existed and was live and populated more than now.

Making gameplay flat and easier is harder a good idea (at least for EVE); so the logistic 0.0 tyrivializiation leaded to a progressive marginalizzation of null sec in the general EVE gameplay, as is now. Is not a coincidence if all the "epic" events and "histories" are referred to pre-Dominion time.

But I agree that the matter is not nerfing or not nerfing JF; it's more complex and I don't think nothing will be done anyway.

Most people cyno in on a station, that is why he had that response. There are advantages to it vs. jumping directly into empire.

You'd still have the transportation issue though, which is what we are really talking about. Nobody mines low ends in null (exclusively) at least not much. Mining in a belt is risky and why take that risk for cheap ores when you can be mining ABCs in a gravimetric site (where people coming after you would need probes...I don't recall if they changed this with Odyssey).

To build stuff in null compression is used, where you find an item that has lots of minerals to make and when you reprocess them, and you buy the minerals in high sec, build the guns, then load up the JF an off you go with 1,000 T1 railguns or something like that. Jump them out to your build system in null, preferably a system with an outpost with refining capabilities, reprocess the guns and then move the minerals to a POS if you are building something there or use them in station otherwise.

And then you run into the slot issue as well. Limited slots means you only build stuff in null that you can't build elsewhere (e.g. capital ships--in particular ships that require sov).

But your comment also acknowledges a huge deficiency of null: it just can't compete with high sec in some areas. For example, look at where I live, Cloud Ring. Not counting the conquerable stations, there are at most 108 manufacturing slots. Now compare that to Inghenges in Sinq Laison. 12 Stations, 11 have factory slots. Even if there are only 10 slots/station that is 110 manufacturing slots (note this is a lowball estimate too, if we go with 15 that would likely be more reasonable). In other words, one system in high sec has as many slots as an entire null region. Add in the other systems in the Jonenor constellation and those 7 systems way outclass Cloud Ring for manufacturing (40 systems). We are talking several hundred slots vs. maybe 150 or so.

And on top of this, there is the issue of access to slots. Right now, if the sov holder gives a player access to manufacturing slots, AFAIK, you get access to every manufacturing slot...possibly even the ones at POS. Give the wrong person access and soon you have somebody cancelling jobs that are bad™. (Although I could be wrong on this....correct me if I'm wrong).

So null has serious issues regarding manufacturing. And keep in mind the post from Fozzie about wanting different parts of Eve to be inter-dependent. If you "fix the manufacturing issue" in null and make it so mining low ends is viable, and given that moon goo is controlled by null entities, and that they get POS fuel bonuses....you could see markets in high sec dry up or shrink.

Don't get me wrong, null also has benefits. Better rats, better PI, moon goo, sov benefits, etc. But one thing about economics, you don't get more by making things more expensive. Ever. It never ever happens. This is why protectionism arguments are bulls***. If you levy a tariff or prevent foreign competition you don't get more home production. You've just handed market power to existing firms on a silver platter. Firms with market power don't increase production, they decrease it. Why? Because more market power means a greater ability to influence the price, and to get a higher price you decrease production. That is what every monopoly does and what every oligopoly does.* This is why Smoot-Hawley was so disasterous during the Great Depression, it made a bad situation worse. Nowadays, most regard arguments for protectionism as a form of rent seeking--i.e. the pursuit of unearned economic profits.

So the entire argument of "nerf this" and economic activity will soar is a dubious claim. In this case it is completely spurious and it is being made by an alt who is most likely a low sec pirate who would love to get more JF kills.

Sorry for that wall of text and segue way into economics...but then again, that is really what this topic is about.

*Oligopolies that compete on price and have no constraints on production will lead to a competitive outcome--i.e. no decrease in production and no increase in price (this is the Bertrand equilibrium in intermediate IO texts). But we aren't in that situation. We clearly have production constraints--limited slots. In this case, the Bertrand equilibrium is essentially the Cornout equilibrium concept with decreased production and higher prices.

Uhhhmmm no. I listened to that and at the 32 minute mark the Mittani makes a response to the question:

Are industrialists becoming more important with the changes brought about by Odyssey?

The Mittani: Industrialists will be important in null when we stop having jump freighters.

In other words, Odyssey has done nothing to alter null industry. They then discuss why and note that industrialists bring nothing that cannot be gotten via jump freighters. They also talked about Ascendant Frontier and BoB and while the former had a null based ship building capability while the latter did not, but BoB still beat Ascendant Frontier...which all happened even before there were jump freighters.

Edit: Whoops, wrong time mark above, sorry it was late and I typed the length of the stream instead of the time mark. Apologies....

I see two problems with JFs
firstly: they are near invincible if it wasn't for the fact that some stupid people jump them through systems with spitter stations no JF would ever be killed. I would like to see cynos only being lightable on empty grids that would add a great risk to it if you do not have a fleet to protect it, yes it would make it harder for smaller entities but it would also split up bigger ones into having to fight the local pirates that occupy the low-high connections and catch their JFs

secondly: it is far too cheap to jump a JF (even more so for jump bridges) if it cost more in the region of 50-100mil for one jump things would change, people would fly less and would try to never fly empty (random hotdrops and titan bridges would be reduced) added to the above it would force them to protect the JFs even more

Or not produce them at all. Or people just suck it up and pay the higher prices. Or alliances use some of their moon money to help defray pilot expenses. Because back before JFs people didn't make lots of BS in null as a general rule. And we've already

And don't forget that it works the other way around too. Empire side stuff will likley get more expensive too--i.e. moon goo which would impact T2 modules. Or they might start reacting stuff locally, and that would mean higher costs for those who are simply doing moon reactions as well.

Like I said, you don't get more economic activity by increasing costs. You get less. Always. It is just that simple.

Now if you want to get more economic activity....lower costs. Or in the case of null, one thing that could help would be to add more manufacturing slots. Also make mining low ends viable from a risk-reward perspective (my understanding is that Odyssey did change the mineral composition of hidden asteroid belts so a step in the right direction).

no they made it worse as you dont need to scan the ore sites and the system is automaticly scanned when you enter it. as there are not much ore sites and you can instantly warp to them they are far from hidden and way more dangerous then before.

i dont think that the ore buff compensates as nobody will have an orca or rorq on the field

To reiterate a bit on this, wouldn't it make sense to use low-sec stations to build stuff? I mean I'm no industrialist nor do I claim to know anything about life in null, but manufacturing slots in low are usually empty and you can cyno right to the station instead of slow-boating through countless high-sec systems. Or am I missing something? I see that with the current situation null sec can't be self-sufficient but maybe null + low combined can?

This seems to be getting bogged down in a place that makes no sense.

Bear with me a moment, this is building up to make a point here: This is a game. It is about various forms of PvP.
Economic, trading, combat with various combinations of ships, etc.

You are suggesting something that will create a gameplay issue, if the means to be self sustaining are not already present, clearly understood, and in use.

This may represent a bottleneck to supply logistics, which is a great target in real life, no doubt.

But absolutely HORRIBLE in a game. We don't want combat pilots thumb twiddling, or leaving the places where they were inspired to fight.

Sure, if it was simply a matter of station slots. But it isn't. It is also an issue of low end ores. They are not mined in abundance in null. And for most T1 hulls the savings you'd get from building your own vs. buying in bulk in Jita is tiny.

And manufacturing slots in high sec are almost never an issue unless you insist on some of the more crowded systems. And why you'd do that I don't know.



I don't see how this would do anything. You'd spin up and jump to a station or a cyno gen in null....then what? They'd warp to a safe POS or station. Even cynoing into a station from null to low wouldn't do much other than result in more dead cyno ships.